Christ or Muhammad?
65Read this first.
I am allowing discussions again on this hub. I will not participate personally in them. All comments must be approved by me before they can be seen. No comments which attack another will be allowed. I will simply delete them.
Let's keep this as civil as possible.
Portrait of Muhammad
Prophecy
Muslims believe Muhammad to be the prophet God. Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. They believe the Old Testament prophecy to point at Muhammad. This hub will be about what Muhammad said and what Jesus said. It will be about their teachings and their lifestyles.
Let's start with one verse from the Qur'an. Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission." This reads like the Mafia demanding protection payments of shop and store owners. They don't actually say that the protection is from their organization. This is called Extortion. Why would Allah need to extort money from infidels?
An earlier verse is Qur'an:9:5"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war." This verse contradicts the previous one I posted here. One says kill them all the other say demand a protection tax from them.
This is only one of many examples of terror in the Qur'an. I also realize that this translation may not be perfect but I believe it to be very close. If anyone has a better translation please let me know in the comments section, and post the translation if you don't mind.
The Sermon on the Mount
The teachings of Jesus are of love toward one another. The commission He gave all believers is to spread the gospel of Christ to all the world.
Mat 11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: Mat 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. Mat 11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
You can see that everything Jesus did was good. He harmed no man or woman ever when He walked this earth. Muhammad would have killed those who wanted their sight restored or any other illness healed.
A commandment Jesus gave to the disciples is found written in the New Testament.
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
This commandment is for all that follow Him.
The real Muhammad
More Teaching of Muhammad
Bukhari:V4B52N220 "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been made victorious with terror.'"
Qur'an:8:12 "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."
Islam is called by many a "Religion of Peace" but according to their own prophet, it is a religion of war and of genocide. Anyone who doesn't follow their teachings will be killed. They will be terrorized. So much for the religion of peace.
Tabari IX:25 "By Allah, I did not come to fight for nothing. I wanted a victory over Ta'if so that I might obtain a slave girl from them and make her pregnant."
Muhammad was also a pedophile. He married Aisha when she was 7 years old. He was 53 at the time and his marriage to her was consummated when she turned 9 years old. This was a common thing to do for Muslims and still is today. I have read stories of how girls are sometimes raped anally so they can still be called virgins if and when they are to be married. They are treated worse than animals.
Qur'an 24:58 "Believers, let your slave girls, and those who have not come to puberty, ask permission on three occasions: before dawn, while you take off your clothes at midday, and after the night prayer. These are your times of undress - times of privacy for you. Outside those times it is not wrong for them to move about: Thus does Allah make clear the Signs."
I may be off a little here but it seems what Muhammad is saying is to allow them to come into your private room during the times that you undress. This is really sickening to me. The girls who have not yet come to puberty going in to be with men while they're undressed.
Anyone who has a conscience knows that this is a sick thing for any young girl to go through.
Jesus Taught
Matthew 5
1. And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2. And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3. Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10. Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Jesus taught us to be blessed. he also told us that many would revile us and hate us for our witness of His power and authority. He taught us to be pure in heart, meek, and merciful. He taught us to hunger and thirst after righteousness.
He taught nothing about killing those who don't believe. Imagine how bad it would be if He had taught that. Christians and Muslims all fighting against everyone and one another. Just imagine the terrorists that would be loosed on the world if Jesus had taught the same things that Muhammad had taught.
The warfare a Christian fights is a spiritual warfare. It isn't flesh and blood as Islam says. It is principalities and powers that we fight against. We can only have the victory through Jesus Christ and His blood. When Jesus died on the cross His blood sealed the deal. The debt was paid and man was made free to choose for himself whom he would serve.
Words of Satan in the "prophets" Mouth
Then Gabriel came to the Messenger of God and said, "Muhammad, what have you done? You have recited to the people that which I did not bring to you from God, and you have said that which was not said to you."
Then the messenger of God was much grieved and feared God greatly, but God sent down a revelation to him, for He was merciful to him, consoling him and making the matter light for him, informing him that there had never been a prophet or a messenger before him who desired as he desired and wished as he wished but that Satan had cast words into his recitation, as he had cast words on Muhammad's tongue.
Then God canceled what Satan had thus cast, and established his verses by telling him that he was like other prophets and messengers, and revealed: "Never did we send a messenger or a prophet before you but that when he recited (the Message) Satan cast words into his recitation (umniyyah). God abrogates what Satan casts. The God established his verses. God is knower, wise. (174)
http://www.answeringislam.info/Responses/Saifullah
SirDent: According to this, Muhammad spoke the words of Satan himself. Muslims the book of Deuteronomy tells of the coming Prophet who is like Moses. They say that Muhammad is the prophet.
Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. This verse is the one used to point to Muhammad as being the prophet. But there's more. Two verse later it is written
Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Now it seems very straightforward. Muhammad spoke words that Satan put in his mouth saying they were from God. He later said that they were not from God but from Satan himself. Read the second verse again and see what is stated about those who prophesy falsely. Of course, Allah can change his mind about things. This would make him imperfect wouldn't it? Why wasn't Muhammad stoned to death for speaking the words of Satan?
Also realize that God did not call Muhammad. According to Islam's own book, the angel Gabriel called Muhammad. No other prophet in the history of the Bible was called by an angel.
More Violence in the Qur'an
Qur'an 2:39"Those who disbelieve and reject Our revelations are the dwellers of the Fire, they shall abide therein forever."
Qur'an 2:59"But the transgressors [the Jews] changed the word from that which had been told to them for another, so We sent upon the wrongdoers a punishment from the heaven because of their rebelling against Allah's obedience.
Qur'an 2:65"And indeed you [Jews] knew those among you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. We [Allah] said to them: "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected."
Qur'an 2:67"And remember when Moses said to his people: 'Verily, Allah commands you that you slaughter a cow.' (The 'story' of the cow - which has no basis in the Bible - follows, which tells the faithful how the Jews attempted, unsuccessfully, to deceive and outwit Allah: 67-73)"
Qur'an 2:74"Then after that your hearts [Jews] were hardened and became as stones or even worse in hardness. And indeed, there are stones out of which rivers gush forth and indeed, there are stones which split asunder so that water flows from them, and indeed, there are stones which fall down for fear of Allah. And Allah is not unaware of what you do."
Qur'an 2:77"Know they [Jews] not that Allah knows what they conceal and what they reveal?"
Qur'an 2:80"And they [Jews] say, 'Hell-fire shall not touch us but for a few hundred days.' Say (O Muhammad): Have you taken a covenant from Allah, so that Allah will not break his covenant? Or is it that you say of Allah what you know not?"
Qur'an 2:85:"Then do you [Jews] believe in a part of the Scripture and reject the rest? Then what is the recompense of those who do so among you, except disgrace in the life of this world, and on the Day of Resurrection they shall be consigned to the most grievous torment.
Qur'an 2:86"Their torment [the Jews] shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped."
Qur'an 2:87"And indeed, we gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers ... Is it that whenever there came to you [Jews] a Messenger with what you yourselves desired not, you grew arrogant? Some, you disbelieved and some, you killed."
Qur'an 2:88"And they [the Jews] say: 'Our hearts are wrapped' (i.e., do not hear or understand Allah's Word.) Nay, Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so little is that which they believe."
Qur'an 2:89"And when there came to them [the Jews], a Book (this Qur'an) from Allah confirming what is with them [the Torah and Gospel], although aforetime they had invoked Allah (for coming of Muhammad) in order to gain victory over those who disbelieved, then when there came to them that which they had recognised, they disbelieved in it. So let the Curse of Allah be on the disbelievers."
Qur'an 2:92"And indeed Moses came to you [Jews] with clear proofs, yet you worshipped the calf after he left, and you were wrongdoers."
Qur'an 2:94"Say to them [the Jews]: 'If the Home of the hereafter with Allah is indeed for you especially and not for others, of mankind, then long for death if you are truthful.'
Qur'an 2:95"But they will never long for it because of what their hands have done. And Allah is All-Aware of the wrongdoers.
There are still many many more of these verses. I got these froma website that states
QUOTATIONS BY CHAPTER AND VERSE FROM THE TRANSLATION OF THE QURAN SANCTIONED BY THE HIGHEST RELIGIOUS MUSLIM AUTHORITIES IN SAUDI ARABIA
My Conclusion
As I stated in the first paragraph, the translation of the Qur'an that I used may not be exactly right. I still believe it to at least be close to being exact. If anyone has a better translation please let me know. To my knowledge, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the United States. It is scary to think that these same verses from the Qur'an will be followed by thousands upon thousands of US citizens.
There are a lot of articles/rumors going around that Barack Obama is a Muslim. What is true and what is not true I can't tell you. I do know that if he is then he has been lying for a very long time. Muhammad didn't care if he lied or not. From what I researched and found out, he is a liar, a murderer, a pedophile and a thief. He is a false prophet who should have been killed when he prophesied falsely and even admitted that Satan had given him the message.
Jesus was completely sinless. He went about doing good all of His time on this earth. He never harmed anyone, but at the same time, He never condoned sin. He knows what it takes to make it to heaven, while Muhammad promised virgins to those who make it to heaven. What about the women who are Muslim? What do they get? I haven't run across anything that says anything about women making it to heaven in the Qur'an.
Jesus is the way the truth and the life. No man can come to the Father, but by Him. He died on a cross for the sins of everyone. It is a free gift offered to even the most vile person. I wrote a poem a little over a year ago. It is titled Jesus Died For You Too. It was written to be easily understood, while yet maintaining the truth. Other hubs I have that can help you to believe in the one true way will be linked below.
After everything is done
God's Word is clear in what it takes to be in Him. One must accept Jesus as their Savior with repentance of sins.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
It is the will of God that every man be saved. It is not His will that any should perish, but that everyone comes to repentance. That being said, God gave us freedom to choose. Some will choose God, others will choose to follow after their own lusts.
CommentsLoading...
Very interesting.
God bless you !
Isolating verses of the Quran without providing full context and scholarly Islamic interpretation is immature and amateurish. It would be like my setting up a website to highlight examples of adultery and incest in the Bible to promote as "true" Christianity.
A word of advice to intelligent seekers of knowlege...always go to an expert source for your information. Curious about Islam? Get your info from well-informed, practicing Muslims. Definitely DON"t take your info from a blog or site created to slander Islam.
Aminaben,
The people who have commented here are Christians and we love Christ. There are many former Muslims who leave Islam to convert to Christianity, so you must consider why do they do this? Jesus provides everlasting salvation, life, and true happiness.
Great Hub Also Great poem So true Jesus is the only way
Very well done in my opinion Sir Dent - God Bless You!
I find it interesting that aminaben objected and is offended by the content (has obviously taken issue with this hub). Nothing is said however to attempt to shed light or lend clarification to the points you made in reference to the passages shared, based on his/her knowledge or understanding.
aminaben says:9 hours ago
Isolating verses of the Quran without providing full context and scholarly Islamic interpretation is immature and amateurish. It would be like my setting up a website to highlight examples of adultery and incest in the Bible to promote as "true" Christianity.
A word of advice to intelligent seekers of knowlege...always go to an expert source for your information. Curious about Islam? Get your info from well-informed, practicing Muslims. Definitely DON"t take your info from a blog or site created to slander Islam.
SirDent: DId you not see what I stated about the translation? I said if you have a better translation pleas elet me know and post the verses here.
I appreciate all the comments. Right now I have no time reply to each of them.
How dare you mock my faith Islam in this manner ? Delete this hub at once or ill be reporting it off ! I cant believe your getting away with this !
According to the site: http://www.al-quran.org.uk/
Yusuf Ali translation
8:12
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
This verse here does not say to the humans to smite, but rather God is referring this to the Angels. After this, whomever does evil, he will do it against himself.
Yusuf Ali translation
24:58
O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions: before morning prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the late-night prayer: these are your three times of undress: outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other: Thus does God make clear the Signs to you: for God is full of knowledge and wisdom.
your comment: "I may be off a little here but it seems what Muhammad is saying is to allow them to come into your private room during the times that you undress. This is really sickening to me. The girls who have not yet come to puberty going in to be with men while they're undressed."
- yes sir! you are WAY off, and I shall prove it!
The meaning of this verse is that it is not allowed to attend to each other during those three occasions. These are three occasions of undressing, meaning it is forbidden to attend to each other while undressed.
The Tabari and the Bukhari that you refer to here is not part of Islam, since the Hadith (Tabari, Bukhari and others...) are all a man made thing, made up of hearsaying that were written down.
The real authority of Islam comes from the book of the Quran.
You made some references to chapter 9 of the Quran. Curiosily enough it is the only chapter in the Quran that is not preceded with the words of
"In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful".
As in all chapters of the Quran, meaning exactly that the chapter 9 in the Quran cannot be the words of God since that chapter is not in the name of God.
My opinion is that you who wrote this hub had been misinformed about Islam.
Thanks for the link Hexxor. I wen to the site that you linked and typed in chapter 9 verses 29-30. What I got was this.
Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
Until they pay Jizya. What exactly is Jizya?
Thank you for the comment on 24:59. I will check this out more thoroughly.
beliver 1984, Go ahead.
This hub is possibly one of the most ignorant and hateful things I have ever read.
I have flagged it as not only racially and theologically biased, but as containing graphic sexual content.
The bigotry it displays is disgusting, and its selective out-of-context quotation from some online racist's "translation" of the Koran is ridiculous. That its author sees fit to publish his myopic and willfully ignorant opinion on the religion of others is astonishing.
This author is simply not qualified to comment upon a religion about which he knows nothing.
Before attempting to comment upon any religion not one's own, it is necessary to start by reading their bible - in this case, the Koran - and, at the same time, to read a few scholarly books that can help place unfamiliar religious texts in perspective. Additionally, it would be worthwhile to visit a Mosque and have a conversation with people of that faith, or even an Imam. Any pastor can surely recommend one who is willing to educate people of other faiths on the Muslim faith. After doing all of this, it is possible that a person might have something to say on the subject that is worth reading.
Brett B, you have every right to flag this hub and/or give it a thumbs down. I used their own book to write this hub and also stated that the translation may be off.
SirDent,
I think there is nothing hateful about this hub, you are just quoting from the Koran and pointing things out. There are provincial regions in Iran even today where men will marry nine year old girls, so this does exist. Books to read if you do not believe me:
Not Without My Daughter
Princess Sultana's Circle
These books are about women who have lived through turmoil in Islamic countries and not all women are treated bad there, but it is much more acceptable. Also, please read the Yacoubian Building if you would like another glimpse into how women are treated as second class citizens even in modern Egypt.
By the way, I do not see why this hub would be removed when there are other hubs out there directly attacking people, whereas this hub just points why Jesus is the correct way.
SirDent,
No, you did not use "their own book." You used a so-called translation from some web site. You have not, by your own admission, read the actual Koran. It is also clear you have not read any scholarly works that would serve to mediate between the writings in the Koran and your very Western viewpoint.
The bottom line is that you have written some very offensive things, on a subject about which you know nothing.
Sweetie Pie,
Regarding adult men marrying female children, let us not forget that there are men in Utah doing the same thing. Is this somehow an indictment of the Christian religion? Let's not forget, adherents of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are to Christianity as some extreme Muslim sects are to the mainstream Muslim faith.
Also, why would you proclaim Christ as THE correct way? You've got the right to proclaim that for yourself, but not for others. Weren't you taught manners? It's unbelievable to me that you would think you know better what millions of people worldwide should do, than they know themselves.
Well you do not have to visit this hub if you feel that way. However, I feel some of the things you say to SirDent lack manners also. By the way, I am very familar with how the FLDS have treated young girls the wrong way, so please do not lecture me. Please stop trying to stir up trouble because we are having a civil discussion. I do believe Christ is the correct way, and if anyone is offended by that they do not have to listen. By the way, in those books I suggested for reading many rich and well to do Muslim women were abused, so yes Islam is more abusive towards women overall than other societies.
There are plenty of violent and intolerant quotes in the Bible, which Christians use when it suits their purposes, and conveniently forget when it doesn't.
Any text from thousands, or even hundreds of years ago... or even yesterday, particularly in a language not our own, can be translated and interpreted in a myriad of ways. We see it with the Bible. We see it with the Qur'an. We see it with Virgil's Aeneid, with Proust, with any number of works.
Fundamentalism in any religion is a problem. I think the current prejudice towards Islam is a reflection of the fact that there aren't presently any antagonistic fundamentalist Christian nations (though some would count the USA). Let's not forget how many terrible things have been done in the name of "Jesus," or how many good things have been done in the name of Allah.
I do not think anyone who has commented here is prejudiced towards Islam. I know many nice Muslim people I get along with. I think SirDent was only explaining his point of view in this hub. I have read extensively about the mistreatment of women in the Middle East, so this is a topic I am very familar with.
SweetiePie:
I didn't mean to call anyone in particular prejudiced, I was merely speaking to the commonly held belief that Islam is a violent or intolerant religion.
I also think it's important to talk about (and fight!) the oppression of women all over the world, but I think it's a mistake to tie that oppression to Islam alone. Women have been oppressed for hundreds of years by people of all religions, colors, and countries. They still are.
There are countless quotes in the Bible that could be used to condone such behavior. Of course, a modern, tolerant Christian would argue that those bits of text were taken out of context, or are outdated as a product of their times. I think we should judge the Qur'an by the same standards. Just as people should look at the message and meaning behind the Bible, and perhaps not take all of it literally, so they should with the Qur'an.
SweetiePie,
I do have to come here and read this. Why? Because I saw the title of this piece advertised to me on the home page of this site, and came to see what was being said. I am concerned with the affairs of man upon this very troubled Earth of ours.
If I allow racist screeds such as this to go unchallenged, then I consent to that racism. Coming here and arguing against it is not "stirring up trouble," it is speaking out for others who are not present to speak for themselves.
Please recall that we have freedom of speech in this country. Mr. Dent is free to say what he wants, and I'm free to flag it and try to get it removed because it is racist speculation masquerading as fact.
It is not rude to call someone on their baloney when they make uninformed and factually incorrect statements about someone else's religion. It is, however, rude, to call your beliefs more correct than someone else's.
Let me try to make this a little clearer. It is proper and definitely not rude to argue facts vs. inaccurate statements. It is, however, highly improper and rude (not to mention useless) to argue beliefs against other beliefs.
Mr. Dent has taken the bible of another culture (the Koran) out of context and from what appears to be an improper translation, and come up with inaccurate ideas about Muslims. He has stated those ideas as though they were facts. If he said that he BELIEVED these things, then I could not argue on the same level as I can here, where he stated these things as facts. I could still properly argue, just not in the same terms as I am doing in this case.
For you, Jesus is without a doubt, "the correct way" (your words.) But clearly, for millions of Muslims, he is not. Yet you seem to be saying that Jesus is not only correct for you, but for those millions of Muslims as well. Is this what you are saying? If so, that's what I'm saying is rude.
I agree with you about this Maddie. I just wanted to clarify I did not think anyone who commented was prejudice towards Islam in case it came across that way. I will stop commenting on this hub as it is SirDent's discussion, but it has just pained me the last few days to see some people lash out at him. There was a hub written about him with some comments I found very offensive, so I was just trying to support him with my comments.
I was working on a reply for Bett B when my electricity went out. When I got back to HP I found a few more comments and I appreciate them all.
If you would actually read what I stated, this is about the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Muhammad. It is what I see personally when I wrote this.
Brett maybe it's ok with you to be a mulim or not. I respect your opinion, but threats of flagging will not help you nor anyone else at all. But if you wish to flag this by all means have at it.
With all due respect to you Maddie, not once did Jesus mention treating women unfairly. The teachings of Jesus are clear to see, as are the teachings of Muhammad. I agree that when women or anyone is oppressed, it should be dealt with. I also see the terror that is instituded by Muslims who actually follow the words of Muhammad.
Sweetiepie, as always I appreciate your comments. I really don't need you to take up for me especially if it causes you to treated badly by others. I will deal with my own pain in my own way.
I will say I plan on writing more articles such as this in the future. Comparing teachings of others to Christ. Not sure how long each article will take, but they will come. That is unless HP bans me, which I don't think is going to happen. A person never really knows though, does he.
SirDent:
I can say, I'm not planning on banning you anytime soon... unless you start plugging a bunch of affiliate links in between your Bible quotes ;)
I see the distinction you make between Bible vs. Qur'an and Jesus vs. Muhammed. I didn't realize that's what you were emphasizing. Of course, the New Testament and the Qur'an alike are accounts from the *followers* of these two men, not of the men themselves, and thus are subject to the interpretation of the authors, as well as a second interpretation by translators, and a third by readers.
My point is: we can't compare the two things properly, because there are so many layers of interpretation built into both.
Of course, it's still an interesting idea. I'll be curious to see the response you get to this and the forthcoming hubs. I'd also be interested to see a Muslim write the same series. ;)
You tell it like it is, keep up the good WORD, this is still a free USA!!
Maddie I appreciate your feedback on this hub. In the initial portion of this hub I mentioned the fact that I didn't know if the translation of the Qur'an I used was right or not. I also stated that I believe that it was probably close to being right. I also asked for other interpretations as well. Anyone who actually reads this hub will know that. ;)
Thank you herblady. I am wondering what kind of herbs your handle comes from. :P Just kidding, so don't go off on me now.
SirDent,
Nothing anyone said to me hurt me. What I was trying to convey to BrettB earlier was why look at a hub if you find it offensive. People were saying the same thing about the sexy gallery hubs a few weeks ago and how people should not look at them if they considered these to be offensive, which was my entire point. I am not upset one person miscontrued my words because I am way too strong for that! I do not mind leaving supportive comments on your hubs, but I will stop if it is becoming an incovenience to you.
It isn't an inconvenience to me. I just don't want anyone to get hurt from trying to support me on my articles. That's all.
Jesus can be all things to all people, if they would only let him. Of course, when he walked this earth, there were people who had a problem with his teachings and his claims....some things never change.
I for one thought this was a great contrast based on - and I am a Christian - my admittedly LIMITED understanding on BOTH subjects (attempting humility here!). Does any one person truly have all the answers, who is an authority??? Is there anyone besides God alone who is never wrong??? I think many individuals MAY think of themselves more highly than they ought and POSSIBLY, as a result of pride, (please don't say I'm a judgemental hypocrit - I said POSSIBLY!) and faith in ones own education or perhaps self image of having superior intellect, walls continue to exist!
Another thought for when it gets to a point where people become weary of responding to those who think they've had "the last word;" we are told in the Word of God, not to argue and as another hubber reminded me, by quoting scripture on one of my hubs, "don't cast your pearls before swine."
I too would agree that if a hubs content is offensive to someone - or someone already knows they are going to be closed minded about a topic - why bother? I have come across hubs where I don't agree with anothers position and I will read til the end (and not comment) or abandon before I'm done.
Sir Dent, (hope I'm not encouraging fuel to be added to the fire w/ this ?)...have you read the book, "The Lotus and the Cross?" by Ravi Zacharias (sp?). Think you might find that interesting if you are not already aware of it, particularly since you intend to do more hubs like these.
Thank you Christine for the comment. I have never read that book but I have heard of the man who wrote it. If I recall correctly, he used to be a Muslim and converted to Christianity.
You gave me a lot to think about. No one has all the answers except God Himself. It took God through the Holy Ghost to reveal to me what little knowledge I do have.
I will continue thinking about your comment here. Thank you very much.
SirDent:
A thought occurred to me. If you're going to make this a series, I suggest pulling quotes from both sources on the same subject. Make each hub about a certain topic, and then get the two takes on it. Here we've got Muhammed and Jesus talking about completely different things, so it's hard to draw a comparison (in addition to the points I raised about a triple filter of interpretation above).
You say in your final conclusion that you are open to other interpretations, but rereading it, I notice you also say that it's scary to think the verses you've cited will be followed by Americans who convert to Islam. I'd pose the question to you whether you follow every verse in the Bible. Do you allow women to teach you, to stand up in church? Do you eat pork? Do you allow a menstruating woman to touch you? Once again, we see that not everything in such a religious text is literal, nor do most practitioners of the religion take it so.
Just some food for thought.
You are right, Maddie, and I am rethinking things. I may stay away from these type articles in the future. Time will tell I suppose.
It is a very highly debated subject. One thing I wanted to point out is for Christians the ban on eating pork and the one about menstruating women is lifted in the New Testament. It will be interesting to see what happens.
I READ THIS AND THOUGHT IT WAS VERY GOOD,,,MY THOUGHTS ON SOME OF YOU THROWING A FIT ABOUT IT MUST MEANT IT HIT A NERVE AND IS TRUE AND YOU DONT WANT TO BELIEVE IT,,,,,,
this is a short, light principle in islam: all of muslims including their prophet, all of them believe in jesus (peace be upon him) as an un-touched prophet sent to people with a message from allah. also we (muslims) believe that jesus (pbuh) had cured people and made miracles (by welling of god) and his mother is a vergin (hadn't been touched by a man), and he (pbuh) has no father. so the question? why muhammed has been sent? good question.. simply to complete the best of the best .. thaughts, behaves, deeds and performance).
Ahmed, that sounds really nice and good. What about the verses from the Qur'an I used for this?
In an attempt to answer your question Sir Dent about the book.."The Lotus and the Cross" is a hypothetical conversation between Buddha and Jesus. I think the author is from East Indian decent however and not sure what type of spiritual upbringing/background he had prior to Christianity.
I did a search for the man last night after reading your comment Christine. He was born and raised in India until the age of about 20. From there he went to other places and currently resides in Georgia.
in sourat 'MARYAM' - OR MARY
and mention in the book (holy quran) Maryam, who took a side place , from her family, then we send our soul (spirit) to her, so he appear as a good man, she said: I ask GOD help, even if you are a good man, he said: I am sent by God to give you a GOOD boy, she asked: how can I have a baby, despite of being not touched by a mankind, and I was not a bad women - he said: allah said it is so easy to me (allah), and I am making him an apparent sign from me to people, and a mercy from me.
after she came back to her family, they asked her - (the sourat is long to tell all here) - they asked: what very bad you have done? she pointed at him keeping silent, so they said: how can we speak to a child in his cradle? so he (jesus) said: I am a God worshiper, he gave me the book, and he makes me a prophit and he bless me wherever I am .... to the end of sourat
so, SirDent .. many other sourat (verse) speak about maryam (mary) as the most appriciated women over the time - also speaks about jesus with very good , kind words, even we muslims love him very much , and consequently respect him from those (sourat's) verses - and sure we belive in him as a prophet of God.
I found the conversations as stimulating as the hub. Thank you for doing it. I do think that Bett B. should get over herself. She seems to be full of pompus anger and that she must save the world from this hub. I probably wont find this hub again(that's what always happens with my limited computer skills) So if you leave a comment meant for me I wont even find it.LOL
well done bett b for flagging this !
I have done the same !
This hub needs to go and is offensive !
ahmed, many books speak of Jesus and Mary. Many people think Jesus to have been a great teacher. He is acalled a mystic by some. Some say He never existed. One thing I ask is this, can you know someone simply by reading about them?
The answer is NO. You can't really know someone until you meet them and spend some time with them. It takes a lot of time to really know a person. I met Jesus personally. It wasn't about a book or about Muhammad. I know many won't agree with what I am saying but here it is anyway.
To call Jesus just a teacher is like calling Hitler a leader of Germany. Although it is true, it is only partially true. As Hitler was much more than just a leader, so is Jesus much, much more than just a teacher. Muhammad did not teach the same teachings as Jesus taught. That was the main reason for starting this hub in the first place.
I look forward to your reponse.
Thank you Z, even though you may find your way back again, I comment here giving you a thank you for visiting my hub.
Sharaaz says:9 minutes ago
well done bett b for flagging this !
I have done the same !
This hub needs to go and is offensive !
SirDent: If I flagged everything on hubpages that I find offensive, that's all I would get done. I am going to let your comment stand, but I urge you to comment on the content. If there are inconsistencies, let me know what they are.
SirDent,
There is nothing offensive on this hub, but the people who continually come here and say this is offensive are quite offensive. Like I said there are several other hubs that are quite offensive, so if those are allowed to stay for the sake of freedom of speech then this one should be able to stay too.
A few weeks ago there was a big debate about scantily clad women on hubs being offensive, and many advised those who were offended by those images not to look. I would say the same for those who find this offensive, stop looking.
This is an interesting, well thought out hub. However, my own view is that if everyone was free to believe whatever they want and follow their own religion, there would be fewer wars and no terrorism.
You people dont find any thing offensive, but publishing pics of the holy prophet (P.B.U.H), is an offencse against the muslims, as it is the most sacred personality for us...........and Mr.who ever youu are you dont have na right to come here and offend some ones religion with out having any knowledge about it.This not place where you can write offensive content and neither you should
I am going to flag your hub and sweet pie this is not a matter of freedom of speech, hurting religious feelings of others is offensive, and this hub is vilolating the TOS of hubpages, so it must be flagged and removed.
Islam is not understood just by interpreting the tranlsation of the quranic versus, it requires through knowledge of the sayings of the Holy Prophet, with out which it is impossible to understand the true message in the quran.
This not a place to compare religions.
Its is the most offensive hub I have ever seen.
Thank you Sweetiepie once again for commenting on my hub.
I appreciate your input also Louie. I do have a question to ask you though. What caused the terrorism to start back when Muhammad was alive?
hassam, flag it all you want. It has been flagged and cleared already. You have every right to flag it as you see fit. You have every right to say it is offensive. What I would like to see from you is why it is offensive and if I wrote something that isn't right or my interpretation is wrong, correct me.
Hassam,
This hub is about how some people choose to become Christians over Muslims. Since when it is blasmphemous for a non-Muslim to put a picture of Muhammad in a book or a hub? By the way, there are Muslims who write books that contain pictures of Muhammad, so not all Muslims share this point of view. This is an issue of freedom of speech because one person wrote a hub about how Christians egg cars, which I find offensive, so if that hub can be here, so can this one. I love Jesus and there is nothing offensive about this hub in my opinion.
Hi DerSent,
have you read the message of (hassam)? .. of course I have to give respect to the other relegions - Also it is not a matter of comparing relegions here, as if you are comparing two differnt products, released in the market .. Oracle is better or MSsql server?... even if we reach this point you will find good subjects, had been covered by both of them, not only by ABSOLUTELY one of them.
FOR EXAMPLE, As being an egyptian moslem, I listen to one of my (christian) friends, telling that : WE FOLLOW ISLAM IN REGULATING THE HERITAGE between a dead father and his family, which has not been mentioned in christianity and we do follow the way of islam in this particular point (because it is mentioned in details in sourat (alnesa'a) belive me: IN DETAILS WITH NO MISSINGS. and I ask you SirDent to read it (just to know) how islam speak about such point in details.
Also, keep in mind, this is not a place of doing one's best to convince the other that his religion is better than yours, or vise versa.
also, it would be a great mistake to speak offensively about the relegions and thaughts of the others.
Speak about your religion, and I am carefully lestining - with great respect.
So, never try to compare between Moses, Jesus or Muhammed, because simply we belive in all of them, as being prophets to god. also, keep in mind, we say every pray time : No god but allah, and mohammed is his worshiper and messenger. we've never took muhammed as GOD also same to Jesus and Moses.
at last, much respect to christianity, same to islam and other heaven religions.
Hi DerSent,
Actually, I become much interested, as you said: I met Jesus personally
Ofcourse I belive you, because no need for you to lie, but bring me together with you ... have you met him Person to Person, sorry to say, in materialized form??
tell me, because I become much excited
ahmed, I did not meet Jesus in physical form. It is a spiritual manifestation.
I also have another question for you. In all your life have you ever heard a newborn child actually speak? It has never happened in the history of man. Yopu say that Jesus spoke words right after He was born. You put Him in a position no other man has been in. Yet you say He is not the prophet. You call Muhammad the Prophet.
Did Muhammad perform miracles himself?
Two more questions and I will wait for your response. Are you willing to teach me how to read Aramaic and correctly interpet the Qur'an? Is not Allah able to speak in my language also?
Hi SirDent,
Sorry for my misspellings, execuse me.
Anyway, first of all, also you have to belive me, because no need for me to lie : I dreamt by muhammed (PBUH), simply as you met Jesus.
SirDent, you said : You put Him in a position no other man has been in. Yet you say He is not the prophet. You call Muhammad the Prophet
sorry SirDent, I never dare to say Muhammed is a prophet and Jesus is not.
I don't know if you know, that: Muhammed was having no teacher (in simple words, there was no witness over history, testify that muhammed has got all of this informations thru any body else).
also, SirDent, as we give love and much respect to Jesus, ask youself, why this happen, if islam doesn't teach us that ??!! (it is a good question).
you ask me a good question, if Jesus (PBUH) speaks just after his born, belive me SirDent .. I can never WORSHIP A SPEAKING CHILD (PBUH) ... but logic to worship the GOD who created him and give him this miracle/s (am I right?).
Moses (PBUH), was able to devide the sea with his stick, to two big devisions, it doesn't mean he is a GOD (another good point).
at last SirDent .. I can tell the miracle of Muhammed Simply (at least from my point of view): is Quran - do you know how Quran is rich in meanings, to the degree that no one can speak like (I am telling what I belive).
Let me tell you SirDent, Quran is Written in Arabic, easy to be understood by any person (even by the non leterated persons) - at the same time you find difficulty to understand in many cases (not the words) but the meanings behind.
I hope, to hear from you soon
Ok Sweet pie, this is the problem with all of them who try to defend such religiously offensive content by merely saying that it is freedom of speech, now if I publish a hub telling badwords to another hubber and say this is freedom of speech, wouldnt you flag it I think that hub would have been deleted with in a day, similarly, Sirdent published this hub and I feel that he is making fun of Islam and here it is not just a matter of self offense, this is offensive to all the muslim who have a thorough believe in islam, now there are muslims who have made portraits of Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) but before all muslim scholars who know islamic teahcings thoroughly, consider it as an offense, so does all the muslim population except for one or two writers like Sirdent who publish,their writings without any knowledge of any topic.
Now like I mentioned and every one is mentioning you cannot understand islam merely by interpreting translations of quran, in your own way.Sirdent here doesnt know what islam is he just publishes some quranic versus stuffs his opinion in the text, and then ask the muslims to correct me if he has written any thing wrong.This is really clever I think , to attract people and you are all doing this under the banner of freedom of speech???You dint even know that we muslims consider Christ as much sacred as we consider Muhammad(PBUH) sacred, that is much to proof that you are here to play and have fun with muslims feelings.
Sir dent If you yourself dont know any thing why are you publishing it.Once again freedom of speech doesnt means that you just keep hurting peoples feelings.
And lastly sweetpie I will protest against all the content that is offensive, to the masses, Islam promotes peace and harmony and teaches us to repect everybody,and it can only be achieved if people like Sirdent learn to do the same by respecting others feelings.
hi SirDent
I was expecting you to response, faster..
anyway, as I've told ... the way Jesus (PBUH) had come to the world was a miracle.. (at this age..) sorry to say at that age (nearly 2008 years before..)
He (PBUH) has no father, and his mother was a virgen!!
Belive it or not : NOWADAYS in labs, please read and ask if it is possible to have such thing to be done in labs today??????????
To deliver a baby, has no father from a virgen???????
Of course, it could be done easily the year 2008 (and no need to say it is a miracle).. because simply it is not the word of allah, who command things to be done, so it is done. Let me tell you, we (muslims) belive it is a miracle 2008 years before, and of course Jesus (PBUH) is a prophet of GOD, because that time no one can do such thing.. beside all miracles has been given to him thru his creater (our GOD) after born.
still waiting to listen to you..
Hi SirDent .. Where are you? (with love ofcourse)
ahmed, I will respond when I have time to respond. Time is something I have very little of today.
Hassam you say Islam is a religion of peace and harmony. Where is the peace and harmony?
That's all I have time to sya at this moment.
In answer to your question SirDent, the terrorism back in Muhammad's time was due to other forms of intollerence. Intollerance, religious or otherwise will always breed violence.
I know the majority of Muslim people are peaceful and tolerant, but I find preplexing is that they do not give Christians the same freedom Muslims have. In Egypt Christians do not have as many career opportunities and they must apply for permission to fix their churches, whereas mosques may be repaired without permission and being a Muslim never holds one back career wise. Copts often opt to emigrate abroad so they will have more freedom and more equal rights.
http://copts.com/english1/index.php/coptic-demands
Even in Syria many Christians have left because they do not have the rights and freedoms Muslims have. My ancestors were Christians in Syria and witnessed a local girl being raped and killed because she refused to marry a Muslim. Christians do have certain right and freedoms in Syria, but most people know being Muslim will make it easier to obtain a government position, etc. Many Christians have remained behind, but they do not have the same rights Muslim have even in countries such as Syria and Egypt that are somewhat more tolerant of Christian populations. In Saudi Arabia a person cannot even practice Christianity and it is against the law, which to me seems very unfair.
As much as people love to critcize the United States today, I will argue that America is a wonderful and freedom giving country because people are able to practice whatever religion they choose here in America. I respect Muslims who say their religion is not violent, because I know people in any religion can be violent, however it seems as if some Muslims who comment do not like the idea that people are Christians and will not be Muslims.
There are cases in Egypt of women being forced to convert to Islam:
http://www.crossrhythms.co.uk/articles/life/Christ
No one is forcing Muslims to convert, but there is freedom or speech here in the US and western countries, which gives us the right to practice our religion freely. I think this hub is good because it gives people considering Christianity another alternative out there and it will not keep anyone from being a Muslim who truly feels this is their calling. One does not have to be a scholar to understand certain verses in the Koran are troubling, and anyone who tells you that questions the validity of common people having knowledge and education. Education is about the Koran being accessible to all Muslims and as such it does not take scholarly training to state some passages of the Koran are troubling. The same can be said for the Old Testament, but as Christians the Old Testament has been replaced with the New Testament and a belief in the salvation provided by Jesus Christ. Egypt is one of the countries in the Muslim world that gives Christians more freedom than others, but it is interesting to consider many Christians left the Middle East so they could have equal right. My great grandparents left Syria in 1918 for that very reason. Just something to think about.
Louie Jerome says:8 hours ago
In answer to your question SirDent, the terrorism back in Muhammad's time was due to other forms of intollerence. Intollerance, religious or otherwise will always breed violence.
SirDent: What I hear when reading this statement is that the Muslims blame everyone else for their own problems. It is our fault that Muslims are war mongers. Just as according to Sharia Law a girl who is raped is always at fault.
ahmed, you misunderstood what I meant above about prophets. My fault for not making it more clear what I meant.
I know Muslims believe Jesus to have been a prophet. But they believe that Muhammad is "THE PROPHET". They place Muhammad above Jesus is what I mean.
SirDent - I believe your motive in publishing this abominable travesty is entirely malicious. I also wonder how you reconcile your promotion of racial/religious hatred with your professed Christianity? There is nothing Christ-like in your words here. If you doubt me, look back and compare your own mean-spirited commentary with the beautiful words you quote from the Sermon on the Mount. You should be deeply ashamed of what you have done in the name of your Lord.
Hi SirDent
If we moslem do as you said, so we don't understand the message of Islam as it should be.
(2:285 sourat el-baqara)
the prophet (PBUH) belive in what has been sent to him by god, and also the belivers do belive as same as him - they belive in god, in god's angles, in those sent books, in his messengers, WE DON'T DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN ANY OF HIS MESSENGERS, AS THEY SAID: WE LISTEN, SO WE OBEY, FORGIVE US OUR GOD, AND OUR DESTINY IS YOURS.
As you see here SirDent, [WE DON'T DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN ANY OF HIS MESSENGERS] this is the talk of god .. has no other meaning as I think.
So if we moslems do that, so we don't understand that sourat
But let me tell, the most contradictory between Moslems and Christs that : We belive in Jesus as A god's prophet exactly as same as mohammed), while christians took him as a god, or even a son of god, or one of three ..
page 127: verses 116 -----> god said: Jesus .. (son of mary), have you told the people to take you and your mother as 2 GODS INSTEAD OF ME? HE SAID: GLORY TO YOU HOW CAN I SAY WHICH IS NOT MY RIGHT, AND IF I TOLD THAT SO YOU KNEW IT, YOU KNOW WHAT IS INSIDE MYSELF AND I DON'T KNOW YOURS, YOU ARE THE KNOWER OF UNKNOWN (HIDDEN THINGS).
No more comment ....
SirDent,
I am sad the people who commented towards you did not even take the time to read those links I left about the mistreatment of Christians in the Middle East. You have not said anything mean or cruel, only shared some troubling quotes from the Koran. People do not want to see what is before them, so they try to turn it around on you. I think they should stop :).
SweetiePie ..
Sorry, I misunderstand, if you defend SirDent, or blame him ..
or maybe you ask me to stop (i think they should stop:) )
Ok .. I am ready to stop if you want .. because even, it seems that SirDent is no more interested in my talking ...
I think SirDent likes people to comment on his hub. However, what I think is wrong is when people call him bigoted, or racist, which is not the case. He just happens to have a different opinion than you. In my research I noticed there are many pro-Muslim websites that compare Christianity to Islam. These sites do not provide accurate information about Islam. For example there was one site with a woman giving testimony about how before she converted to Islam she was an alcoholic because her church provided no moral support. However, there are many Christian people who go to churches that would be willing to help a woman with such an issue and whereas she may have found support in Islam, it is incorrect to say no church could help her find the support she needed. Some of the Muslim people who commented on that site said they wished more American people would be like her. However, I found that comment ridiculous because there are many non-Muslim people who do not drink, smoke, or do wild things. So if Muslims are allowed to have websites comparing their religion to Christianity, then I think SirDent can too. The comments on those websites were not well informed about Islam, so if you feel SirDent is well informed about Islam I would agree. I do not pretend to be informed about Islam and neither does he because all this hub is about is analyzing a few passages from the Koran from a Christian perspective. Islamic websites I have found did the same thing and they were highly misinformed about Christianity, but I never left comments on their webpages say take this down and you are prejudiced because they have the freedom of speech to have those sites. I truly feel that anyone who is upset about SirDent's hub she write their own defending Islam, which would be a great way to have an alternative viewpoint. This was all I meant.
SweetiePie - I have lived in the Middle East for seven years. Knowledge is not about links to websites. It's about experience. SirDent's hub is nothing to be proud of, nothing to defend. Christ said 'Blessed are the peace makers'. He did not bless the hate-mongers.
Paraglider says:6 hours ago
SirDent - I believe your motive in publishing this abominable travesty is entirely malicious. I also wonder how you reconcile your promotion of racial/religious hatred with your professed Christianity? There is nothing Christ-like in your words here. If you doubt me, look back and compare your own mean-spirited commentary with the beautiful words you quote from the Sermon on the Mount. You should be deeply ashamed of what you have done in the name of your Lord.
SirDent: I have not promoted hatred of any kind in this hub. I have shown what I think of Muhammad and the Qur'an. Many want to think that Jesus was only about love and acceptance, but there is so much more to Jesus than that. Jesus is God in flesh. He is the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all men.
Jesus taught against a form and a fashion of godliness. Many had the form and fashion of God, but that was only an outward appearance. Muhammad had a form and a fashion, but no spiritual sight.
The message Jesus preached is this;
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. Please read it all slowly and read every single word.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
As many as RECEIVED Him, gave He power to become the sons of God.
Call it/me hateful if you want. I don't condone any thing hateful done by any group or religion. I will say that God does hate and is wrathful at times. He created us in His image. He is emotional at times just as we are. He has feelings just as we do. He has knowledge that transcends the knowledge of any man ever alive before or alive now.
God made A WAY for man to come back to Him. He didn't make many ways. Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY. You have a choice to make. What I wrote above is truth. You know it is truth, but because of tradition or fear you say it isn't truth.
Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. Shall I find more teachings of Jesus that show others to be ungodly and liars?
Paraglider says:34 minutes ago
SweetiePie - I have lived in the Middle East for seven years. Knowledge is not about links to websites. It's about experience. SirDent's hub is nothing to be proud of, nothing to defend. Christ said 'Blessed are the peace makers'. He did not bless the hate-mongers.
SirDent: I wonder what you know about Sharia law. What happens to a woman or a girl who is raped? The girl is always at fault unless they can find four men as a witness to say she was raped. After the girl or woman is found to be at fault she is then put to death isn't she?
Now, what about all the girls who are raped annaly to satisfy the sexual cravings and perverseness of men? Are they not raped in thatway just os they can still be called virgins? Don't deny that it happens. Please just give an honest answer.
Paraglider says:34 minutes ago
SweetiePie - I have lived in the Middle East for seven years. Knowledge is not about links to websites. It's about experience. SirDent's hub is nothing to be proud of, nothing to defend. Christ said 'Blessed are the peace makers'. He did not bless the hate-mongers.
SirDent: I wonder what you know about Sharia law. What happens to a woman or a girl who is raped? The girl is always at fault unless they can find four men as a witness to say she was raped. After the girl or woman is found to be at fault she is then put to death isn't she?
Now, what about all the girls who are raped annaly to satisfy the sexual cravings and perverseness of men? Are they not raped in thatway just os they can still be called virgins? Don't deny that it happens. Please just give an honest answer.
Still, it ain't a matter of compare between Islam and other heaven messages, No.. Never.. it would be an invitation, for hate...
If I seek love, I have to accept the others, whoever they are.. however they think.. but it would be a great mistake, to hurt the other's thought, or belives.
this is not a flag against non-moslems, but also I refuse the idea that one moslem try to do the same towards a non-moslem...
When god create us he (almighty) was capable to make all of us same color, same tongue, same religion, but as we see, it is a collection of everything..
why to refuse, or to deny each other..??
ofcourse life could be nicer if all of this different collection, accept each other, respect each other, moreover help each other
again, as i stated many times, it would be a mistake, or a narrow-minded idea to do one's best to tell he is better or something like that.
ahmed, I believe it to be Muslims that miss the point and message. Muhammad was a warmonger, no different than Adolf Hitler. It has been spelled out in the Qur'an and his own actions. I have one more little bit of information.
Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Now by confession himself, Muhammad spoke words that Satan had put into his mind/mouth. SInce Muslims believe the scripture about God rasing up a prophet to be poiting at Muhammad, it would make sense that they also believe the scripture I posted here.
If anyone who prophesies in another name or speaks words which God did not give him, shall be put to death. Muhammad was not put to death for speaking the devil's words, and in fact stated that Allah changed his Word so that Muahhamd wouldn't be killed.
I am a busy person at times and cannot just jump into the site here at will. I will answer each comment to the best of my ability, but sometimes it takes a while for me to do so.
ahmed, what you are saying might make sense to all who believe everyone is in god and god in everyone. It might even make sense to some who believe Jesus to be the Son of God. What does God say about it?
Everyone wants to got heaven. Everyone wants to be one with God. They want this or they want that. What they don't want is to have to work for any of it. Let's read one verse one more time here.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
It states that as many had received Him, gave He power to become the sons of God.
Sweetiepie, as always I love your comments and appreciate them very much.
SirDENT said - I wonder what you know about Sharia law. What happens to a woman or a girl who is raped? The girl is always at fault unless they can find four men as a witness to say she was raped. After the girl or woman is found to be at fault she is then put to death isn't she?
------------------
You are seriously ill-informed. I have lived in Islamic states for many years. The simple answer to your fatuous "isn't she" (tagged onto the end of a loaded exercise in question-begging, but I don't expect you to understand that) is no.
You didn't respond to my observation that your words are wholly un-Christ-like. I suspect the reason is that you know I spoke the truth.
Good night!
The links I provided about the Middle East are knowledge rich. Please do not undermine my research because I know Coptic people who have moved from Egypt to the US and they have told me about their treatment as second class citizens. So please do not undermine a research rich link that provides good information because that is not in the spirit of helping fellow man.
Paraglider says:81 minutes ago
SirDENT said - I wonder what you know about Sharia law. What happens to a woman or a girl who is raped? The girl is always at fault unless they can find four men as a witness to say she was raped. After the girl or woman is found to be at fault she is then put to death isn't she?
------------------
You are seriously ill-informed. I have lived in Islamic states for many years. The simple answer to your fatuous "isn't she" (tagged onto the end of a loaded exercise in question-begging, but I don't expect you to understand that) is no.
You didn't respond to my observation that your words are wholly un-Christ-like. I suspect the reason is that you know I spoke the truth.
Good night!
SirDent: You can call what you say truth or whatever you want to call it. I answered in a way different than what you wanted or expected. Please see my comments above.
SirDent,
You answered the questions well. The truth shall set you free, but some people do not want to see the truth. Part of the problem is the majority of people living in majority Islamic nations do not see what is happening to minorities and women is because they go on with their day to day activities and do not wish to change the status quo. Just because someone lives in a Islamic country does not mean they know everything that happens there, and if they say nothing happens bad without acknowledging the abuses that indicates they must feel okay with certain people being treated as second class citizens. Harsh commentators just want to be right and they pick a different person each week to argue with. If you had written a hub about how great pagans are some of these same commentators would be praising you. If you had written a hub talking about how Islam is superior to Christianity I think a few Muslims would be telling you how wonderful you are. Do you think they would be offended if you put down Christianity, most likely not. Personally I think people look down upon Christians to continue these harsh comments. So it is okay to write hubs about Christians egging cars, but forbid you have an alternate opinion. I think you are a kind person and the truth shall set us free.
I know Sweetie. I can only do what I can do. I am in the chatroom if you care to join me.
I am not here to defend everything done in the name of Islam. Wicked things have been done by extremists in the name of every religion. Christianity is no exception. If in doubt, read some history. I spoke against this hub because it is malicious. Answering me by quoting screeds of John's gospel (which I have read many times) is no answer at all. Posting that picture of the Prophet Mohammad as a terrorist is inflamatory. So is the willful misunderstanding of perfectly simple verses form the Quran.
I haven't said anything about wicked things being done in this hub. It has happened before in all religions and will happen more. What this hub is about is the comparison of the teachings of Jesus and Muhammad.
You call the verse I posted as being simple. If they are so simple why is there so much debate over them? If they are simple as you stated yourself, wouldn't they actually mean what they say?
You said this - I may be off a little here but it seems what Muhammad is saying is to allow them to come into your private room during the times that you undress. This is really sickening to me. The girls who have not yet come to puberty going in to be with men while they're undressed.
If that isn't willful misunderstanding of something very simple, I don't know what is. You have interpreted the passage to mean its exact opposite. to suit your purpose of stirring up anti-Islamic feelings.
I am not trying to stir up antiIslamic feelings. I am merely trying to convey the truth. Jesus Christ is the truth and besideHim there is no other truth.
Muhahmmad taught war against anyone who isn't muslim. Simple to understand really.
The verse you just posted above seems to be what I stated it to be. That's me of course. So tell me why didn't someone actually try to explain what it actually means instead of sending me to another site (which really did nothing to help)?
All I can say at this point is everyone has expressed their opinion. I think someone needs to go write a hub comparing Islam to Christianity if they feel they can do this better. It is better to have hubs with alternate opinions to keep coming back and saying this is wrong and wrong. SirDent does not have to take down his hub because you tell him too. Freedom of speech :).
Thank you Sweetie. I agree. It would be better if they did a hub.
SirDent - you do not have a monopoly on truth. You have some beliefs which most of the world's people do not share.
SweetiePie - with freedom of speech comes responsibility. I have not told him to take down his hub. I've merely told him I consider it a travesty.
I see your point Paraglider, so I would like to see what you would write regarding this issue.
SweetiePie - I am not a follower of either faith, but I respect both, when followed in the spirit of peace. I am not interested in writing a hub comparing the teachings of Jesus and Mohammad. I have, however, written one about the Holy Month of Ramadan. http://hubpages.com/hub/Ramadan_Holy_Month If you take a look, I think you'll see that my interest is in spreading harmony, not division. Thanks for your time, and no hard feelings about our disagreement :)
I think it is interesting that your point about the religious freedoms offered in Christian countries compared to those offered in Muslim countries wasn't picked up on Sweetiepie. I wonder why that is?
There is much maligning of Christian intolerance and yet it is Christian and sadly former Christian countries that offer the greatest freedoms. Imagine the outcry if Christians defended their boarders as zealously as some of the other religions (including such religions as atheism and Darwinism).
I am unable to understand anything here.. what's going on here...
This discussion is becoming tremendously heated. There is not much more to say. At least PetMemorial got what I was talking about. All I can say is I would not want to be a Coptic person in Egypt where you have to publish your religion on your ID card. I find it ridiculous Christians have to ask for permission to fix a toilet in an Egyptian church, but new mosques can be put up any and every day without permission. At least here in teh US, New Zealand, and other western nations Muslims can build a mosque and have tax breaks and good careers. Christians in Egypt do not have the same freedoms.
I am neither Christian nor Muslim. I feel after reading this that although some of your points may or may not be true - seeking to condemn another religion or trying to prove one is better than the other is a fruitless execise.
Christianity has been responsible for such great moments as "the dark ages", persecuting people who practiced science and believed in such things as the world being round.
Christianity can pull no punches in a war of enlightenment.
Paraglider says:9 hours ago
SirDent - you do not have a monopoly on truth. You have some beliefs which most of the world's people do not share.
SweetiePie - with freedom of speech comes responsibility. I have not told him to take down his hub. I've merely told him I consider it a travesty.
SirDent: I do not have a monopoly on truth that's for certain. But in the world today they say there are many different truths, when there is only one truth. That one truth is Jesus Christ.
They twist words to make them what they want and say this is "MY TRUTH. What they fail to realize is that as they do that, those who would rape and murder can say the exact same thing. They can say my truth is that I should rape and/or murder.
The Bible says there will come a day when people won't be able to stand sound doctrine. That day has come.
To consider my hub a travesty, means that you don't believe anything I wrote in it. It means you turn your head when you see the terrorism going on around the world by Muslim men.
Osama bin Laden is one of the worst terrorists in modern times. The taliban is just as bad. Yassar Arafat was a terrorist and Hamas still terrorizes. How can anyone say they are not?
Sadaam Hussein was a terrorist and even killed his own people.
If we look back and see why they did these things. They blame the United States and the UK. They blame others for their own faults and evilness.
Paraglider says:9 hours ago
SweetiePie - I am not a follower of either faith, but I respect both, when followed in the spirit of peace. I am not interested in writing a hub comparing the teachings of Jesus and Mohammad. I have, however, written one about the Holy Month of Ramadan. http://hubpages.com/hub/Ramadan_Holy_Month If you take a look, I think you'll see that my interest is in spreading harmony, not division. Thanks for your time, and no hard feelings about our disagreement :)
SirDent: I am glad to know that you respect terrorism. Where is the harmony in that? some say I take the Qur'an out of context, yet it says what it says. No one who commented here has tried to enlighten me as to what they think it says.
Thank you Petmemorialworld for your comment. I hope no one comes to your door with a suicide bomb attached to their waist.
Colin, I am not seeking to condemn a religion, but to condemn the acts. The truth has been told here in this hub, but many refuse to see it. Jesus came to give life, and life more abundant. He died for the sins of the world. Muhammad didn't die for the sins of the world. He actually killed for his own gain and lusts.
Jesus is the Word of God, and whoever receives Him is given power by Him to become the children of God.
SirDent - you are well out of order here. How dare you say to me "I am glad to know that you respect terrorism". You wouldn't say that to my face. It is a cowardly and stupid remark. I expect you to apologise immediately.
In spite of your protestations, you do appear to believe you have a monopoly on truth. You also appear to believe you have the right to slander at will.
I have flagged this hub for your offensive comments.
This is a good hub SirDent. I still love it! By the way, there are many, many more offensive hubs that should be taken down before this one. However, since we have freedom of speech yours and theirs are allowed to stay. Freedom of speech means people can express an alternate opinion and this is very much allowed here at Hubpages. For me Jesus is the truth and the light. He makes my life happy and I am joyous for him. For Christians Jesus is the truth and we will say that, so that will not stop.
BY THE WAY SOME OF YOU HAVE ATTACKED SIR DENT,, HE MUST BE TOTALLY TELLING THE TRUTH IN WHAT HE WRITES AND THE ONES THAT HAVE ATTACKED HIM CANT TAKE IT,,,,MAYBE ITS WHAT SOME CALLED BEING CONVICTED IN YOUR HEART,,,,
SweetiePie - This hub's author has accused me of respecting terrorism. That is a foul slander and does not constitute free speech. You should not defend the indefensible.
Paraglider says:2 hours ago
SirDent - you are well out of order here. How dare you say to me "I am glad to know that you respect terrorism". You wouldn't say that to my face. It is a cowardly and stupid remark. I expect you to apologise immediately.In spite of your protestations, you do appear to believe you have a monopoly on truth. You also appear to believe you have the right to slander at will. I have flagged this hub for your offensive comments.
SirDent: You are wrong when you think I wouldn't tell you to your face. When you respect Islam, you respect terrorism. That's the bottom line. Islam is about terrorism. It was in the beginning and still is today.
In all honesty, I believe people need to grow up and see themselves for what they really are. They believe they are gods. They believe the one true God is too simple or stupid to be right. They believe He has no feelings. They are "willfully blind" to the truth.
Paraglider, you can flag this hub all you want. If the mods at HP ask me to unpublish it I will. Not because they would be right, but because I do my best to go by the rules.
I have heard from Muslims, for so long, how Christians mistranslate the Quran. Well, everyone on here can go to any major university for a translation. It is no longer easy. Typically, the top 6 or 7 pages of a university Quran search are just Muslim writings. I used to tell people to go there, but Muslims are very organized, it appears and know SEO well.
The Quran absolutely orders its followers - Muslims - to kill all infidels. That is not in there once or twice, but repeatedly. Don't take my word for it.
That is not to say that all Muslims do that. I am not saying that at all. However, the fear that there may well be another phase of Islam is a legitimate fear. How about all the people who starve to death in Muslim ruled countries of Africa? Is this carrying out their mandate? I really do not know, but I am suspicious. Why would rulers burn the grain given to them instead of giving it to the people? I can say that is what is reported by major news agencies. I do not know that for a fact.
What I do know for a fact is that the Quran is an evil, vicious book, and it is the religious guide for Islam. I am sorry that this offends Muslims, but my advice to them is to go become a Christian if this offends them. The Bible has no such mandates to God's folowers. No one can say that God or Jesus gives any Christian today the right, much less the mandate, to kill another. In fact, thou shalt not kill is one of the ten commandments.
That is why I choose the Bible because it is accesible to everyone. Honestly I do not feel sympathetic to some Christian sects that believe you must perform a series of rituals to get into Heaven. I believe simple belief in Jesus and Bible reading is the way of the Christian faith, but many others would not agree with me. I do not think all Muslims are terrorists, but there is a tendency of terrorists to use the Koran to justify their teachings. The same could be said of the crusades by Christians, which I do not agree with either, but Jesus never talked of violence or bloodshed. My view of Christ is the one found in his words of the Bible and I abhor anyone who uses a book for violence.
Jesus talked of "where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched", repeatedly, in Mark 9. The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment. That doesn't sound a lot better than being murdered in this life. The fact is that it's a cheap shot to select unpleasant verses from one book and pleasant verses from another and call it a comparison. Anyone could do that. Fortunately most of us wouldn't stoop so low.
Overall the words of Jesus are humane. I like how anyone can read the Bible and have a relationship with our Lord and savior. This is the reason many Muslim people do convert to Christianity because it is much more accessible than Islam. By the way I did go to a mosque once for a research assignment and I must say I feel women are not treated as equals in these ceremonies. I understand Muslim women love their faith, but we had to sit behind a tented area when the men were able to have the majority of the room in the mosque. To me it was just too restrictive because I like to be part of the cermony and the action. Of course Muslim women will not find this restrictive, but a new person learning about their faith will not find that aspect of it very liberating. I understand if Islamic women want to cover their hair for modesty purposes, but I think it is wrong women are forced to cover their hair in certain Islamic states such as Iran and Saudi Arabia. By the way, there are quite a few women in Iran who have converted to Christianity because they were tired of having a state religion forced upon them.
Also, I have found hundreds of Muslims sites that make cheap shots at Christians, such as saying all American women who go to churches are whores that sell their bodies and work in clubs. To me that is not much better.
Paraglider says:10 minutes ago
Jesus talked of "where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched", repeatedly, in Mark 9. The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment. That doesn't sound a lot better than being murdered in this life. The fact is that it's a cheap shot to select unpleasant verses from one book and pleasant verses from another and call it a comparison. Anyone could do that. Fortunately most of us wouldn't stoop so low.
SirDent: And do you know whay that is said in the Bible? It is for those who refuse the offer God made for them. Originally it was created for the devil and his angels. Man are trespassers in hell.
What will save the world is education tempered with common humanity and tolerance. What most endangers the world is fundamentalism of any persuasion, bigotry and intolerance.
SirDent - I'll take my chances. I want nothing to do with a faith that believes in eternal punishment. It's patently stupid.
I think Muslim women should be allowed to practice Islam if that is their heart desire. I think it is silly the French government does not allow women to wear the veil to school, which is an infringement of freedom of speech. At least in American women can wear a veil, go to mosque, or anything they want. I have much tolerance for anyone and would never tell them no you cannot be a Muslim or a Jew. However, for me and Christians we believe Jesus is the way and the truth. On the religion forums I see Christians belittled and made fun of where people rate how silly their answers are, and I must say that is so intolerant. Anyone who would do that should also learn tolerance and respect each others views. You can be whatever faith you want and say Atheism is truth, but I also can say Christ is truth for me.
The only thing that can save the world is to accept God for who he really is and stop making up your/our own gods. God did indeed make "A WAY", but man tries to make his own way.
Paraglider you have every right to choose what you want to believe. God created man with the right to choose. he won't force anyone to bow or love Him. While you decide and choose, I will keep trying to tell the truth to all who will listen.
I agree with you SirDent, but others are entitled to their own various opinions. This does not detract from the fact that Christ is the truth and many people rile against this because they hate the idea of not being in control of their life completely. It has been so since Adam and Eve first disobeyed and ate the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden.
Paraglider;
Yes, I do believe in Hell. It is very real to me. Why should I be ashamed of that. It is just a fact. I have no fear of it. Why do you condemn it? Do you think it is fair that people should sin and get away with it without reprisal. I do not believe that.
However, the Quran tells its followers to kill me. That is not comparable. I am told to do the right thing ALWAYS, much less kill.
I laugh about people who condemn fundamentalism. I am the most fundamental Christian I can possibly be, because it is fundamentally right. I am a fundamentalist American. I am a fundamentalist father, and a fundamentalist husband. I better be fundamentalist about all my beliefs or I am just a coward.
No Christian on here has been ONE BIT bigoted or intolerant. This thread is about the books that govern our faiths. The Quran tells Muslims to kill infidels, and the Bible tells the opposite. It is not about who does what. Oh, it is the fundamentalists that do what they are supposed to do. So, yes, it is often told that fundamentalist Muslims kill and do awful things. Well, duh, they are ordered to that. Fundamentalist Christians what the Bible commands. The difference is that the Bible advocates nothing of the sort. So, do not try to twist it around and say some Christians do bad things. They are just being disobedient, and I will gladly prove it from the Bible if you need.
Wow, so many comments, I had to skip many of them to start writing my original thoughts.
1. The Christian God, and Muslim God, as the Judaic God, is the same God.
2. Lets say, for the sake of argument, Christianity in writing is more peaceful, and Islam more violent (not that I necessarily agree with this). Well, people have done many evil things in the name of Christianity and people have done many peaceful things in the name of Islam. Just like you chose select passages of the Bible and the Koran, made subjective interpretations, so have millions of followers of each religion. Sometimes it results in a good outcome, sometimes bad. Do the interpretations or acts of the followers dictate the essence of the religion? Should we base all three Judaic religions and every one of its seedlings in the face of the Old Testament and believe that God is a vindictive and sadistic entity?
3. Christ or Muhammad? Sometimes I wonder how pluralistic people can actually become. Here's a thought to ponder on... why does Christ or Muhammad need to be the true prophet? What about the rest of the world? Buddha lived 500+ years before Jesus, perhaps he is the true prophet who brought on a new era and many people are still following the wrong teachings.
4. I don't support removing this publication because it opened good discussion and I don't think it is directly attacking anyone (who is living) and it obviously demonstrates the limitations of its own existence.
The problem is that "what the Bible commands" or "what the Quran commands" is whatever you want at the time. You can find verses in both books to justify or forbid just about anything. And of course, anyone who disagrees is by definition wrong because you can 'prove' it from your scripture. Please be assured, I have no wish to interfere with anyone's beliefs, except when they cause them to behave deplorably towards their fellow creatures. But I shall bow out of this conversation now, because prolonging it is having the undesirable effect of keeping this hub high on the 'hot' list, when it would be better for everyone if it were to sink wothout trace. Goodnight, all :)
Bye Paraglider;
Again, this thread is about the commands by the book of that religion. All the stuff about who does what with it is obviously meaningless to the discussion here. Actually, what people do in the world out of disobedience has nothing to do with whether the rules are correct.
I contend that the Quran rules are horrific, and killing people who do not believe like you is clearly horrific. I contend that the rules of the Bible are very good. There are over 600 rules in the Bible, and I do not have a problem with them.
It is a little like anything else in life. For example, it is the law to stop at a stop sign. If a person runs the stop sign and kills someone, that is not the fault of the law. It is the fault of the person. That is like saying Christianity is bad because Chrsitians are bad. Now, let's say the law is to run a stop sign, but that is a secret rule of a secret school that everyone denies having. Then, a good student of that school goes out, runs a stop sign and kills someone. That was a good person obeying a bad rule. That is like ... well, I am sure you get the picture.
to: SirDent
to: sweetiePie
Now up to the last comment of SirDent, so his words become more offensive, exposed - throwing hate ..
i will ask a very simple question to all non muslims:
muslims of today exceeds one billion, also increasing every day ..
the question is: if that religion is that much weak, so one fifth of the world are fool !!
I don't think so
sorry to speak that way, because I found both of you are just attacking (just to hurt) - if you read carefully what I wrote, it was just praise to Jesus.. but I think you misunderstand .. Jesus himself (PBUH) deny what you are doing.
So.. if you want to discuss politely, much ok - but if not .. so it is useless to keep going.
Gecko;
I have to respectfully fail to concur with all four of your premises.
1. God is not the same to any three of those groups. For example, God is a trinity, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. Neither Jews or Muslims believe that in any way. Muslims believe Jesus was a secondary prophet to Muhammad, and Jews believe Jesus was a man. Their Messiah is still coming.
2. Refer to my last post. The Bible is black and white. You have to read it to know what it says. The same is true of the Quran. There is no gray area in this whatsoever. Both books say what they say, and they cannot say something different. What people do has no bearing on the rules of the book. The book does not change as a result of the actions of people.
3. Your eternity depends on the choice you make. If Islam is wrong, I will die and burn in hell forever. If Chrsitianity is right, I believe I will inherit the Kingdom of God. In my book, there is very good reason to figure out who is correct!
4. This is a thread without limitations, as I expressed in item 3.
Gecko
Whoops typo is item 3 sentence 2, It should have read "if Islam is right..."
ahmed hinnawi says:29 minutes ago
to: SirDent
to: sweetiePie
Now up to the last comment of SirDent, so his words become more offensive, exposed - throwing hate ..
i will ask a very simple question to all non muslims:
muslims of today exceeds one billion, also increasing every day ..
the question is: if that religion is that much weak, so one fifth of the world are fool !!
I don't think so
sorry to speak that way, because I found both of you are just attacking (just to hurt) - if you read carefully what I wrote, it was just praise to Jesus.. but I think you misunderstand .. Jesus himself (PBUH) deny what you are doing.
So.. if you want to discuss politely, much ok - but if not .. so it is useless to keep going.
SirDent: You're going to have to show me what part I said is hateful. Truth is never hateful, but is always true. Actually ahmed, I believe more than one fifth of the world to be foolish.
I have a question for you now Aahmed. Are you ready to publicly condemn the actions of Osama bin laden, Sadaam Hussein, Yassar Arafat, Hamas, etc. . .
Gecko, I don't have time right now to reply to your comment personally, but I will later this evening or tonight.
All the before mentioned books were written by people and in turn are interpretations of the sayings of others, events witnessed, folklore passed down, etc etc etc. The Bible was written well after the death of Christ. Would you suggest the writings of man infallible? I would argue that the entire reason organized religion exists, why people go to church / temple, is so religion can be translated. Humans are unfortunately very subjective... therefore religion ends up being a very subjective practice of already subjective material.
What does it really mean to be Christian? I bet once you get past faith, believing in God, and Christ dieing for humanity's sins, you will receive a vast array of definitions depending on which congregation you ask and which member. When a group of people find a new true meaning to their faith they form another separate group of Christians. Baptists, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Catholics, Jehovah Witness', the list goes on and on.
Also, although Christians do believe in the trinity, the "God" before Christ (father), the God that is Christ (son), and the Holy Spirit, the father is the same God. Christians just added on to God's definition. A new interpretation if you will.
Its strange that followers of any of the three Judaic religions will not recognize the evolution of the belief systems they participate in. In some ways, one could easily argue that Christianity is to Judaism as Protestantism is to Catholicism. I still find it interesting that many Christian sects do not even recognize Catholics as Christians.
viralprospector:
No, no typo. I'm not arguing either is right.
1. You cloud the Messiah with God himself.
2. To further push my point... I am guessing that we do not need lawyers or a court system that can overturn laws if what people write are black and white? How novel. Lets just automatically punish everyone that someone else thinks breaks the law. The written language is always up for interpretation... or did we not make it that far in our English studies? I guess analyzing poetry and literature was just cute... and a waste of time.
3. This is based on the assumption (or faith in) that eternity exists and that people will / can be expelled from experiencing it.
4. This thread will always be limited by excerpts taken out of context and the highly subjective motivations of the participants. Including myself :)
The debates of religious righteousness have existed since religion began.
Gecko;
You have so many points that I will copy your post and respond piece by piece:
Gecko: All the before mentioned books were written by people and in turn are interpretations of the sayings of others, events witnessed, folklore passed down, etc etc etc. The Bible was written well after the death of Christ. Would you suggest the writings of man infallible?
VP: To be a Christian, it is essential to believe that these writings are the inspired word of God. Yes I am 100% certain that is true.
Gecko: I would argue that the entire reason organized religion exists, why people go to church / temple, is so religion can be translated.
VP: Quit mixing and matching things. You are just confusing yourself, not me. Religion is not the Bible. Peoples' actions are not the Bible. This is a discussion of the Bible vs the Quran. Religion is super fallibel, and peoples' actions are super fallible. the Bible promises that is true, and it is true to form. It is the Bible that is infallible.
Gecko: Humans are unfortunately very subjective... therefore religion ends up being a very subjective practice of already subjective material.
VP: True, as I just said.
Gecko: What does it really mean to be Christian? I bet once you get past faith, believing in God, and Christ dieing for humanity's sins, you will receive a vast array of definitions depending on which congregation you ask and which member. When a group of people find a new true meaning to their faith they form another separate group of Christians. Baptists, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Catholics, Jehovah Witness', the list goes on and on.
VP: So what? Again you are trying to mix and match. Religion is not the Bible. Peoples' actions are equally as flawed.
Gecko: Also, although Christians do believe in the trinity, the "God" before Christ (father), the God that is Christ (son), and the Holy Spirit, the father is the same God. Christians just added on to God's definition. A new interpretation if you will.
VP: That is totally false, by definition. God is three in one to Christians. He cannot be separated from Christ and the Holy Spirit. You have totally whiffed the meaning of Christianity. Without the role of each, the picture is not complete. The Holy Spirit is what guides me constantly. The other religions do not believe that. Jesus is the only way to God. Either go through Jesus, or there is no way to God. How is God relevent if you cannot go to Him ever? That is the case for all other religions.
Gecko: Its strange that followers of any of the three Judaic religions will not recognize the evolution of the belief systems they participate in.
VP: There is no evolution. The Bible does not evolve. Total truth is unwavering.
Gecko: In some ways, one could easily argue that Christianity is to Judaism as Protestantism is to Catholicism. I still find it interesting that many Christian sects do not even recognize Catholics as Christians.
VP: It just is what it is. I cannot change the facts for you. This is black and white, true or false.
Gecko: viralprospector: No, no typo. I'm not arguing either is right.
VP: I do not understand that comment. I made the typo, so I know whether it was one, not you.
Gecko: 1. You cloud the Messiah with God himself.
VP: How is that? I think my comments are crystal clear. I am sorry that you are confused.
Gecko: 2. To further push my point... I am guessing that we do not need lawyers or a court system that can overturn laws if what people write are black and white? How novel.
VP: Absolutley!!!! We do not need lawyers!!!! I would make the case that we do not need the courts either if they are going to shove out the injustice they do these days.
Gecko: By the way, courts and lawyers have no right to overturn laws, even though.
VP: Gee, you need to read the Constitution, too, huh?
Gecko: Lets just automatically punish everyone that someone else thinks breaks the law.
VP: Where did that come from? Your head obviously... No one has advocated such rubbish until you did.
Gecko: The written language is always up for interpretation... or did we not make it that far in our English studies? I guess analyzing poetry and literature was just cute... and a waste of time.
VP: The Bible... come on, stay on topic. All this allegory may amuse you, but it does not fool me. Apples and oranges make a good fruit salad for fruits, too.
Gecko: 3. This is based on the assumption (or faith in) that eternity exists and that people will / can be expelled from experiencing it.
VP: Ah ha, that is the ultimate question that you have to answer for yourself. It is the most important question that you will ever answer. I pray to God almighty that everyone on this thread pulls out their Bible and reads what is coming next. Thankfully, for me, there is only one answer. I would suggest you read Revelation 21:8, and it will tell you some information that you have never been told. I doubt if anyone you will ever meet will tell it to you. Call it our little secret. God Bless You!!!!!
Gecko: 4. This thread will always be limited by excerpts taken out of context and the highly subjective motivations of the participants. Including myself :)
VP: :)
Gecko: The debates of religious righteousness have existed since religion began.
VP: OK, let's agree to agree then :)
Gecko;
Here are a couple of issues that are THE POINT of this thread:
Quran 004.089 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.
Quran 004.091 Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.
Quran 009.005 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)
009.123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him. Enough said?
again Sirdent; it appears that you show no respect to the others .. as you said I believe that more than one fifth of people as foolish. good
let me tell you, here we are speaking about religious points of view, but I am not responsible about the behaviour of you, or of Osama ben laden, or even saddam ..
but also not to misunderstand, no one has commonsense, don't deny foolish of indeviduals like saddam or osama .. but about palastinians, I have some conservations.
anyway .. Jesus or Muhammed are not responsible about sins done by people ..
last thing to say, publicly, that around 80% of people in the world (if they are thinking your way) supposed to be over-foolish (sorry)
Interesting that you wish to separate the book from the religion so strongly. Fair enough. All I can say, to who believes the Bible to the letter... is that I don't believe everything I read, no matter what the source. So, I guess then we will have to part ways on this point.
I need to interject here too... I think the progression of at least our little discussion is getting off topic. To really debate about this issue one must actually be able to consider their own religion could be wrong. Obviously a true believer would not take that position, so that is nothing against you or anyone else. People see the world through the eyes of their beliefs.
So, I have nothing left to comment on and since the lawyer issue is off topic, I won't continue it :)
Gecko:
That is cool, and we'll see ya. Don't forget to dwell on that ultimate question :).
SirDent decides when the discussion becomes off topic. I think that is up to him.
Ahmed Hinnawi ,
You are very insulting towards me as a woman. Everything I have said is polite, but I think you are mad I say Christ is the son of God because I am a woman. If men say it is okay, but you really have a problem with a woman speaking out. I do not believe Jesus is a prophet, I believe he is the son of God. Did you know the majority of Egypt was Christian before Muslims invaded and forced people to convert because it was easier to agree with the majority than to have your own opinions. This is one of the reason today Copts in Egypt continually feel pressure to convert because being a Christian is just not easy in Egypt. They have to ask permission to fix a bathroom in their church, which is a health hazard and insulting to them. What do you feel for them? Are you going to protest against the treatment of Copts in your country? Many women have been treated unfairly in Islam and you are afraid to be held accountable for this. I think it bothers you I am a strong and independent woman who speaks her mind. If you left these types of comments on my hub I would just delete them because you have not even bothered to sign up for hubpages or even write hubs yet. I think you just want to try and keep people from being Christians as evidence by your say 1/5 of the world population is now Muslim.
What I cannot belive is that the person that started this post takes the risk for all of use that write on Associate Content by showing an image of the Muhammad.
You are either a very brave or a very unintelligent individual.
Balimermaid, I have no idea what you mean by your comment. I will say that I am not stupid.
BaliMermaid is confusing this site with Associated Content. This is hubpages. Also, no one has the right to imply someone is not intelligent. That is just rude! Sirdent, sometimes I think you are nicer than I because I would just delete all those rude comments.
What Bali probably don't know is that I am a member of Asoociated Content also. Maybe I should go there and plug this hub. What do you think?
I think you should. I have never published anything there, do you have to wait for it to be approved?
I haven't been there in a long time so I can't remember. :P
I gotta hand it to you Dent, you've got guts. I will say though, that from what I've read concerning Muhammed, I've always considered him an extremely honest and charismatic man. I could be wrong, but I do wonder how effective witnessing to muslims would be when labeling their prophet a murderer and pedophile. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with sugar-coating the truth, but this really goes for the jugular. Whatever the case, I do like the hub, and I appreciate your unflinching attitude concerning your faith. That's pretty damn cool in my book.
Jreuters, I thought a lot about writing this before I wrote it and took my time writing. I thought about Jesus and how He would call the Pharisees out on their teachings and beliefs. Jesus didn't pull any punches. I am not Jesus but I believe in calling a cow a cow if you know what I mean.
I would like to know where you got your information about Muhammad if you don't mind letting me know.
I appreciate your comment here.
SirDent,
You quoted the Quran as saying "...That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say,,,"
Isn't this true? Don't "Christian" leaders (such as GW) wage war onto nations over moral, ethical or political differences? When did Christ say "Drop bombs onto the servants of evil men!"? I wouldn't put it past someone to edit it to say such a thing, but I'm pretty sure its not in there.
I've read the Quran and the Bible. There were beautiful parts to both, and horrible parts to both (Moses ordering the death of Pagans...religious genocide anyone?). But in the end, they are both just books. Old children's stories. They are no different than Star Wars, or Lord of the Rings. Just stories to entertain and teach moral lessons and history.
The Bible and the Quran are different only in origin of publication and sponsorship by State. But don't pretend that leaders haven't edited both these books to serve their needs or that the Church doesn't changes policy (dead babies in purgatory) in order to up conversion, profits and influence. They are just books. Scientology is getting blasted just because it's new, not because it is any more false than any other religion. They are all fiction, some based on history, but in the end, fiction.
If the leaders of the far-right Christian movement were given full control of our country America would be one messed up place. I saw video of Pat Robertson in South America rallying up Contra soldiers to help supress the poor, I've read about the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Witch Trials, and the KKK. These are our Chistian terrorists. Give them an army and complete power (like Islamist extremists have been given in the Middle East) and you will see the end of times.
That is the only difference between the Bible, the Quran and Dianetics; the amount of crazy people who follow its every word.
If you are confident in your beliefs and have an open mind, watch Zeitgeist (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/).
Thanks for your post.
Everyone seems to want to believe that God cannot keep his word intact. You can call me crazy if you want but personal attacks help nobody. Your link doesn't work either.
If you want to comment again please do so but keep it civil.
It sounds like a lot of abusive ones are crawling out of the woodwork. Must be a full moon LOL.
yeah, I understand your analogy, but where does one draw the line? I mean, Jesus berated the Pharisees, and rightfully so I believe, but he also showed unconditional love to prostitutes, tax collectors, and thieves. The distinction, I believe, lies in the motives, and hearts of the people Jesus encountered. The Pharisees were at the top of the religious "power structure" in ancient Israel. greedy, corruptible and wealthy, the Pharisees represented religion gone bad. They were unswerving in their strict interpretation of the law, and had so perverted that interpretation that avoiding work on the Sabatth had taken precedence over helping others in need, for one instance. But Muslims, at least the vast majority of them, are poor, and for them, Islam is a source of order in a chaotic world, not a weapon used to subjugate and control others. (And let's leave terrorists out of this, they represent a mere fraction of Musilims, and Christianity has plenty of its own) I guess what I'm saying is that I've met quite a few Muslims in my life, and consider some of them dear friends with deeply held beliefs, and I can guarantee that the quickest way to completely negate any interest they may hold in my faith is by labelling their prophet a murderer and child-molester. Sure, call a spade a spade, but sometimes discretion is an appropriate path. As much as I believe in the right of free speech, I hate seeing Christ represented in a disrespectful manner. What sort of response would the above representation of Muhamad garner from a Muslim?
very intresting collections
Free Jack;
That's a mouthful...
Free Jack said: You quoted the Quran as saying "...That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say,,,"
VP: This thread has direct translations of the Quran that shows it tells all Muslims to kill all Non Muslims. That is the point. It is written in the holy book of Islam on several occasions. Did you read and understand that?
Free Jack: Isn't this true? Don't "Christian" leaders (such as GW) wage war onto nations over moral, ethical or political differences? When did Christ say "Drop bombs onto the servants of evil men!"? I wouldn't put it past someone to edit it to say such a thing, but I'm pretty sure its not in there.
VP: That made no sense, sorry. Still, let me clarify a basic fact for you. Every person falls short of perfect, just as the Bible promises. So, never confuse yourself by evaluating faith by peoples' actions. You will just end up all confused like that. Instead, read their holy book. That is the document of faith that leads all believers in it. I cannot believe that people can be lead by any faith that directly orders its followers to kill all others.
Free jack: I've read the Quran and the Bible. There were beautiful parts to both, and horrible parts to both (Moses ordering the death of Pagans...religious genocide anyone?). But in the end, they are both just books. Old children's stories. They are no different than Star Wars, or Lord of the Rings. Just stories to entertain and teach moral lessons and history.
VP: Again, you miss the entire point of it all. The Old Testament of the Bible was a far different time, wouldn't you agree? In that time, God directly dealt with conditions of time with specific directions. Yes, violent times called God to violent measures to accomplish His will. He did not EVER tell us to keep up the violence. In fact, He commanded us to not kill, along with over 600 other things. The Quran commands Muslims to kill all non believers today. It is not just some book, and if every person that is intelligent knows that full well. Neither is the Quran just some book.
Free Jack: The Bible and the Quran are different only in origin of publication and sponsorship by State.
VP: The state has absolutely nothing to do with this. Again, read the Quran and read the Bible. The state could care less, and I could care less about the state.
Free Jack: But don't pretend that leaders haven't edited both these books to serve their needs or that the Church doesn't changes policy (dead babies in purgatory) in order to up conversion, profits and influence.
You really need to study a little. Neither book is edited as you indicate. These are translated from original manuscripts almost 2000 years old. Again, you need to understand that the church has nothing to do with the faith either. The church is a building. Read the Bible and the Quran, and you will know the faiths. Of course, churches pervert the true word.
Free Jack: They are just books. Scientology is getting blasted just because it's new, not because it is any more false than any other religion. They are all fiction, some based on history, but in the end, fiction.
VP: If you believe these are just fiction books, you will face the eternal consequences of that decision one way or the other. Either I will have wasted my life, or you will burn in hell forever with that opinion. Yes, I do mean that! I could not care less if someone looks at that as politically unpopular. It is written, and the decision is up to you and only you. By the way, neither book is classified by scholars as fiction.
Free Jack: If the leaders of the far-right Christian movement were given full control of our country America would be one messed up place. I saw video of Pat Robertson in South America rallying up Contra soldiers to help supress the poor, I've read about the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Witch Trials, and the KKK. These are our Chistian terrorists. Give them an army and complete power (like Islamist extremists have been given in the Middle East) and you will see the end of times.
VP: People are imperfect, OK? The Bible tells you that. You did say that you read it, right? Maybe try reading it again. I find that I get more out of it every time I open it. You are talking about Satan's power gone bad. A man with power is a chief target of Satan, as is a rich man. All this is covered so well in the Bible. I really do hope you read it. It will help you out immensely. You will be able to fully understand this thread then, after intense study.
Free Jack: That is the only difference between the Bible, the Quran and Dianetics; the amount of crazy people who follow its every word.
VP: What a shame to be totally wrong. Just reread this thread, and you can correct your error of judgement and knowledge, though. All the facts are there for you to read. In essence, to recap, the Quran orders all Muslims to kill unbelievers now. The Bible tells Christians, thou shalt no kill. Isn't that enough for you to realize that these books are in essence totally and completely different? Go KILL vs thou shalt not KILL? If you want more, I can do that easily for you...
Free Jack: If you are confident in your beliefs and have an open mind, watch Zeitgeist (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/).
Thanks for your post.
VP: :)
Jreuter;
If your holy book ordered you to kill everyone else, would you go out and publicize that to everybody? Of course, you wouldn't.
You make the big mistake, repeated often in the past, by overlooking the obvious. The Quran tells Muslims to kill all unbelievers. We cannot ever change that. That will be true for eternity. Your choice is to determine how you want to deal with that. If you want to call apples "oranges" because people tell you that, then that is up to you. Personally, I want to deal with the facts, not opinions of them.
You say that it is not good evangelism to be honest with people. That is a sad fallacy that you need to correct. the ONLY way to evangelize is by using the true words from the holy books. Anything else is just perverted. Do you think Jesus' disciples just said what people wanted to hear? Do you think they just wanted to be popular with the people?
The problem with America today is that people are misled so easily. Few have the determination to study, learn, then act. So many lies persist in common society today because people sit in front of the TV with a beer and a bag of chips for "the news". If you study, you will learn the truth, not watch TV. That is really fairly simple. Then, you have a decision to be a coward and sit back or say the truth you have learned.
There is no decision for a Christian. See what the Bible has to say about cowards. Oh, to make it easy, see Revelation 21:8. It tells you about several other things, you might want to know, too.
:)
ViralP - By your lights, Muslims want to kill everyone but themselves, while Christians don't need to do this because God will do it for them. Except your God's preference is eternal punishment involving an immortal worm and some sulphurous flames. And you seem genuinely to relish threatening unbelievers with this fate. Just out of interest, can you tell me exactly what part the worm is going to play? You know, just in case it's a deciding factor in later life? You say study and learn the truth. I say study and learn a little common sense, a little science and some humility.
Thank you for your enlightenment
Jreuters, there is no doubt that there are some Muslims who are actually good ones wanting and loving peace. I get that I really do. Just as there are some catholics who are true believers, but overall I don't believe catholics to be right. Same with mormons.
If you noticed above that ahmed condemned Osama bin laden and Sadaam Hussein, but not Hamas which is a terrorist orgainzation. Yassar Arafat was a terrorist from the early 50's and was a terrorist when he died.
I am waiting for the source of your information on Muhammd being a humble and good man.
Viral, I appreciate your comments and the way you laid them out. You have helped tremendously in these interactions.
I appreciate all the comments here, even though some were flammatory.
Sir Dent;
You can classify my comments as flammatory,and I do not take offense to that statement. But do you question the truth of them? This is a very serious subject that you presented here, and it is our obligation to bring truth. I am sorry if I offended you. That was not my intent.
Paraglider;
Let me answer your thread point by point. I have one motive here. That is to tell the truth of the Bible and the Quran. Period.
Paraglider wrote: ViralP - By your lights, Muslims want to kill everyone but themselves, while Christians don't need to do this because God will do it for them.
VP: First, I never accused any Muslim of wanting to kill anyone. I am writing exact translations of the Quran. If you want to make that leap of understanding, then so be it, but don't blame me for you doing it. I did not talk of God's power directly, but He is ominpotent and omnipresent, so I guess you can determine for yourself what his role is.
Paraglider: Except your God's preference is eternal punishment involving an immortal worm and some sulphurous flames.
VP: There is no worm. Again, that is you saying that, not me. Be very clear on this: It is absolutely, positively NOT God's preference that anyone be condemned to hell. That choice is called free will, and every one of us has it. It is your choice, and it is my choice. God sent Jesus to give everyone the chance to be eternally united with God. I cannot force anyone to do anything, and I am not trying to do that here.
Paraglider: And you seem genuinely to relish threatening unbelievers with this fate.
VP: I am not threatening anyone. I am sorry if you feel threatened now, though. I would think about that carefully and determine for yourself why you feel threatened. I am telling the truth of the Quran and the truth of the Bible.
Paraglider: Just out of interest, can you tell me exactly what part the worm is going to play? You know, just in case it's a deciding factor in later life? You say study and learn the truth. I say study and learn a little common sense, a little science and some humility.
VP: Wow, chill out, man. This was an academic discussion, until your conclusion of that post. As I said, there is no worm. If I lack common sense scientific understanding and humility, you have been unable to point that out to me. I am carefully reading every word you write, and I am responding to every word. If you take issue with my writing, just point it out. Do not just insult me, as I have no factual comeback for an insult. I do not want you to dislike me, and I hope you do not mean your insults. Either way, that is again your choice. :)
There is an immortal worm in Jesus's version (Mark 9). I guess John saw fit to leave it out of Revelation, for reasons of his own. We'll never know.
I am not insulting anyone. SirD did insult me yesterday by telling me I supported terrorism, and resfused to apologise for his insult.
I don't feel remotely threatened by fantasy fires or immortal worms. I am simply amazed that anyone mowadays should give them the time of day.
I wasn't pointing a finger at you, Viral. Some of the earlier comments were flammatory.
Paraglider I didn't mean to insult you. I read your words and came to my own conclusion. This doesn't mean that I am backing down from what I wrote above. Confusion reigns in this day and time and it no fault of God's. It is the fault of man.
SirDent;
I might suggest you give the "flammatory" deal a rest or be specific perhaps. Generalities make you seem like you might have an agenda. Specifics make it seem like you want a resolution.
SirDent does not come across as having any more of an agenda than anyone else who has commented. Everyone has agenda to some extent because we all speak from our own bias. Unfortunately there will never be a resolution found here because most everyone who comments will have their own opinion. If I were SirDent I think I would just not respond to all the comments at this point because everyone on the thread has presented all sides by now.
Paraglider;
I think you are a good man, and I am proud to write with you on this thread.
It is the biggest decision we all make, isn't it? Eternal destiny cannot be underestimated, in my opinion. It can be ignored or discarded, but it should be thought through, don't you think?
I love Mark 9. It shows the example that I believe Jesus wanted for all of us, the spirit to help the needy and disadvantaged. See John 9 for the same type of story.
That is not the point of this thread, so I apologize, but maybe I will go start one on that. I believe it is the second most important point of the New Testament. I can see that you have an in depth understanding of the Bible. I am so glad that you do. I wonder if you also love the story of Jesus' miracles of healing the poor.
As to the worm, I have never thought of it as you do. Rather, I think of it as a worm being disease. A worm is related that way often in the Bible. Hell is a place where disease lives on, as opposed to heaven where it is forever gone.
Good points paraglider!
Thanks, VP - I appreciate the cordiality as it is the only way to make progress. I was brought up in the Church of Scotland, and in much simpler times (1950s). I have known Old & New testaments (not chapter & verse, but pretty well) all my life. But I have also read Eastern holy books and been equally impressed with some of the teachings of Buddha and material from the Bhagavad Gita. I live in the Middle East, among peace-loving Moslems. I've also studied both science and the philosophy of science. The net result of this is that at this stage in my life I am deeply suspicious of anyone who claims to have found "THE WAY". Their personal way, no worries and good luck - but the universal Way that leads one to pass judgment on others? No thank you. I will make a point of reading you here, VP :)
I think everyone has good points here. However, I still believe Jesus is the way and the truth.
Hey, get your quote right - He is the Way the Truth and the Life - for you, and many others :)
wow, VP, I'm at a loss for words. You basically called me a coward and then quoted scripture that said cowards will burn in hell. If that's speaking the truth in love, or the practice of humility in action, I want no part of it. Your assumptions concerning who I am are incorrect, but after witnessing such diatribe spew from your fingers I have no desire to continue this conversation further. I'm am pleased though, that the majority of Hubbers use this forum as a place for intelligent, thought-provoking debate and discussion, not personal attacks on people they don't even truly know. Good luck with your crusade. I'm sure your "truth" will help a lot of lost people feel like garbage.
Paraglider, you are so funny!
Hey SirDent,
first off I want to make clear that I do as well consider the Koran to be a corruption of truth, and find many verses contained within, despite varying interpretations, to be of questionable moral content. But as far as Muhammad goes, I've taken a couple middle-east history classes, and have read college textbooks called "Middle East History" and "A History of the Modern Middle East." Historically speaking, college textbooks are, for the most part, some of the most accurate estimations of history one can get their hands on, as they rely heavily on primary sources and are peer-reviewed. So yeah, I believe that the beginning of Muhammad's career was marked by honest business practices and a fairly compassionate attitude concerning the weak and downtrodden. BUT, as is so often the case, an ascension to power has a way of changing people, and he was probably no exception. And if one believes, as I do, that a deceiving spirit was to blame for the creation of the Koran, and in fact Islam as a whole, then it logically follows that the Mohammad's previous high-standards of morality would be tarnished as well.
Jreuter brings up an interesting point. Let us temporarily remove the spirituality from the context of both Jesus and Muhammad and just few them as men. Muhammad and Jesus operated in very different environments where Jesus never took on the responsibilities of a leader of say a city or country. Jesus never faced the decisions leaders in very high positions must make. He might have had opinions about how to handle such situations, but he never personally had to make the call. I would say, he was a total pacifist and as most people know, pacifism only works against forces who also respect the belief. For example, the British eventually fell to Gandhi's acts of passive resistance because they adhered to the principle of not committing unjust murder. However, the Chinese government in the past has had no problem annihilating its own students for protesting.
For those who would argue that Jesus would still follow his beliefs even in a position of power, that might be true. But his rule would be short lived and most likely end in much suffering for his followers either by the tyranny of a new leader, the conquering of a neighboring threat, or the misdeeds of the citizens themselves. Could Jesus realistically keep order in a mortal world if he simply followed his heart? I doubt it... after all, aren't humans born sinful (if you believe that)?
Jreuter;
I hope that makes you feel better. I have no intentions as you suspect:
Jreuter: wow, VP, I'm at a loss for words. You basically called me a coward and then quoted scripture that said cowards will burn in hell.
VP: I have no intention of determining whether or not you are a coward. I certainly never accused or implied that about you...
Jreuter: If that's speaking the truth in love, or the practice of humility in action, I want no part of it.
VP: I never said that I was speaking truth in love either. That was not my intention, nor was I trying not to. I was just saying what I believe about the Bible and the Quran.
Jreuter: Your assumptions concerning who I am are incorrect, but after witnessing such diatribe spew from your fingers I have no desire to continue this conversation further.
VP: Actaully I made no assumptions about you previously... You accuse me of all sorts of things I did not do, then you rail against me big time. It is cool with me, but I think you made a wise choice not to make such statements against me any more. It doesn't seem all that productive to me either.
Jreuter: I'm am pleased though, that the majority of Hubbers use this forum as a place for intelligent, thought-provoking debate and discussion, not personal attacks on people they don't even truly know. Good luck with your crusade. I'm sure your "truth" will help a lot of lost people feel like garbage.
VP: Gee thanks. Let me get this right. It is me that is on a "crusade", making "people feel like garbage", making "personal attacks on people", spewing diatribe from my fingers, not speaking the truth in love or practicing "humility". What can I say to that, huh? :)
SweetiePie..
Much respect should gone to Paraglider, simply it is the truth .. where nothing absolute, this is the life .. a complicated collection of thaughts, beliefs, behavior, etc..
but as being humans, this is a great point has been given to us by god, to deal with all of this varities, with much respect.. with much acceptance to the others.. never deny rights for the others, or underestimate what others believe or think about.
but at the same time, all religions never accept hurting the innocent people even if that person is christian or muslim or even jewish. (n.b. SirDent, I didn't condemned Palastinians, and it supposed to be known to you that palastinians have been envaded and are thrown away of there homes)
Anyway, as it was mentioned earlier, much respect to all heaven messages, aside of the behavior of some protests here or there.
jreuter says:2 hours ago
Hey SirDent,
first off I want to make clear that I do as well consider the Koran to be a corruption of truth, and find many verses contained within, despite varying interpretations, to be of questionable moral content. But as far as Muhammad goes, I've taken a couple middle-east history classes, and have read college textbooks called "Middle East History" and "A History of the Modern Middle East." Historically speaking, college textbooks are, for the most part, some of the most accurate estimations of history one can get their hands on, as they rely heavily on primary sources and are peer-reviewed. So yeah, I believe that the beginning of Muhammad's career was marked by honest business practices and a fairly compassionate attitude concerning the weak and downtrodden. BUT, as is so often the case, an ascension to power has a way of changing people, and he was probably no exception. And if one believes, as I do, that a deceiving spirit was to blame for the creation of the Koran, and in fact Islam as a whole, then it logically follows that the Mohammad's previous high-standards of morality would be tarnished as well.
SirDent: It is very possible that he was honest as a young man. If I recall correctly his wife died and not long after that he married Aisha. It is very possible that the death of his wife changed him in a way that would make him into a monster.
That doesn't justify what the Qur'an says for Muslims to do. Which is what this hub is really about. It's a comparison of the teachings of Jesus and Muhammad. Anyone can see the difference in both. I know we (especially me) have gotten off topic just a little. I apologize for that.
I was actually thinking of removing the comment capsule on this hub because I thought it was getting out of hand. I will do as the commenters wish though.
Sir dent,
You seem to have a knack for getting responses.
Ahmed,
You are so out of line. I was just joking with paraglider as he was joking with me first. However, you took something as a small exchange and blew it out of context. Sirdent, I would tell Ahmed to sign up for hubpages since he insists on coming back here every single time to comment.
However, I do agree with you that Palestians are not always treated fairly. However, you keep steering the conversation back to you and you choose the woman to speak down to. Have you ever had a female boss Ahmed? I wonder how you would deal with this.
talford says:61 minutes ago
Sir dent, You seem to have a knack for getting responses.
SirDent: Thank you Takford for the comment. This one has just about done me in. I haven't been able to write anything else until today from trying to keep up with it.
As always, Sweetiepie, I appreciate your comments.
Interesting conversation.
The first thing is Muhammad (sm) was not a Prophet God. Rather he was a prophet sent By God. Then regarding Christ , Christ was also a prophet of God for the Muslims. Now, the thing is, not christianity nor islam have ever argued to have a conference on the greatness of Christ or Muhammad.
In all the Holy books of the mostly followed religions (i.e: Bible, Quran, Ved, etc) it has been stated that "dont talk them about religion those who dont have any regards or respects for GOD"
Remember, Christ, Muhammad(sm), Musa, Krishna, Buddha, Adam all of them were special because they taught us about GOD. While they have taught us about respect for other religions, then ISLAM is no exception. Only to read the particular verses of Quran would not give anyone any particular idea, Rather to know about Quran one needs to grasp the historical context, the interpretations of Quran.
And ofcourse the life of Muhammad(sm) is needed to read. What sacrifices he made for GOD, and what sacrifices were made by his compaions are also worth noting. Now a days islam is used by some terrorists, its right. Not only islam, Christianlity, Buddhism, Hinduism, are also bases for some terrorists.
At the end, i want to say our ultimate goal for leading our lives is to obtain Knowledge! So, with Knowledge, we will become enlightened, and will have answers of all questions. So, lets obtain knowledge, as The famous Philosopher "Swami Vivekanondo" said only this can liberate us.
Take Care.
I like what Funnebone said on his own hub recently about how ridiculous it is for people to waste time on topics they do not even enjoy. It is one thing if some people come back here and only comment once, but a few kept coming back again, again, and again to say how horrible Sirdent's hub is. Ahmed for example came back several times, and the last time he told me I should respect a man, but he did not mention or show any respect for me. Well I have news for them: read a different hub or write one yourself. Some of the responses on here are just getting really, really weird.
In the religion forum they award prizes to what they consider the oddest comments made by those who believe in Creation, well I am going to award a prize to the oddest comment here. This comment has nothing to do with point of view, but just because it was very humorous. The winner is!
BaliMermaid says:2 days ago
What I cannot belive is that the person that started this post takes the risk for all of use that write on Associate Content by showing an image of the Muhammad.
You are either a very brave or a very unintelligent individual.
This comment is the winner because this person actually believes this website is Associated Content and not Hubpages. That comment makes me laugh when I read it :).
Thank you Tanvir for your comment and addition to this discussion. If as you stated they are all prophets of God, why are there messages so different?
Also keepin mind that Jesus Himself claimed to be God, for he sad, "If you have seen me you have seen the Father."
Waiting for your reply.
Sweetiepie I agree with the oddest comment. It's is a one of kind comment for certain.
SweetiePie - a quiet word in your ear - the Associated Content / Hubpages question is not important. The point was that it is not acceptable to post an image of Mohammad with a bomb in his headgear. Did you laugh at that? I didn't. It's not funny and it's not clever. It is deeply offensive and was intended to be offensive.
I actually agree with BaliMermaid's assertion that SirDent is either very brave or very unintelligent. And I see no evidence of bravery, so...
But you - I see total sincerity in you, but sadly coupled with a tendency to defend the indefensible. SirDent insults and slanders at will. Jesus did not do that. You are a devoted Christian. I am sorry to say that he is a bigot for Christ. Don't let him drag you down to his level.
Paraglider,
I was trying to make light of what is becoming a very dull and repeative comments section. They do the same thing in the religion forum, so I thought why not award one silly comment an award. I make silly comments too and yes hers was a little silly. Not the part about Muhammad, but mistaking the name of this site :). I only thought her comment was humorous because she thought this website was associated content. I would have at least liked her to call us Hubpages. I am trying to show everyone this does not have to be so serious :).
I never judge anyone and I believe you, Sirdent, and I are all intelligent in our own ways. However, I never feel anyone is brave until they become a fire fighter in the Lake Arrowhead fires or the ones who rescued people during 9/11. Or my dad who spent two days hosing down our entire street to keep the fires from devouring many houses. People who work for UNICEF or missionaries are pretty brave also, but there are very few truly brave people in this world.
SweetiePie - You are being wholly ingenuous, as always. Jesus would have loved you. Some would say he still does. I appreciate your attempt to pour oil on troubled waters.
SirD's manner is wholly disingenuous. He professes peace while promoting strife. That he will deny this is but further evidence of the truth of what I have said.
Great Hub SirDent, and good comparison of the Koran vs. The Bible. I hadn't heard those things about the purported prophet Muhammad. What have you learned about his wife, the very wealthy and prominent Catholic lady Khadijah?
SirDent,
I love your new fourth of July avatar :).
Paraglider says:4 hours ago
SweetiePie - a quiet word in your ear - the Associated Content / Hubpages question is not important. The point was that it is not acceptable to post an image of Mohammad with a bomb in his headgear. Did you laugh at that? I didn't. It's not funny and it's not clever. It is deeply offensive and was intended to be offensive.
I actually agree with BaliMermaid's assertion that SirDent is either very brave or very unintelligent. And I see no evidence of bravery, so...
But you - I see total sincerity in you, but sadly coupled with a tendency to defend the indefensible. SirDent insults and slanders at will. Jesus did not do that. You are a devoted Christian. I am sorry to say that he is a bigot for Christ. Don't let him drag you down to his level.
SirDent: What you seem to miss Paraglider is the fact that Jesus never lied. He called the devil the devil. You protect those who would just as soon kill you as look at you. That's fine by me, but don't expect me to do what you do.
Show me where I slandered anyone. Also prove to me what I wrote is untrue.
A tidbit of information I got earlier today. Did you know that it is OK for Muslims to lie to anyyone, except another Muslim? If a Muslim is a liar then he/she is a liar.
dlarson says:3 hours ago
Great Hub SirDent, and good comparison of the Koran vs. The Bible. I hadn't heard those things about the purported prophet Muhammad. What have you learned about his wife, the very wealthy and prominent Catholic lady Khadijah?
SirDent: I didn't really find anything much on her. Just that she was 15 years older than Muhammad when they married. Of course this hub isn't about her or I would have researched more.
Dear Sir Dent,
you have asked me to give reply to the fact that Jesus was God. Well, first of all it is individual perspective of judging Jesus. Its not only you who claimed that Jesus was God. The argument will not reach any solution on that basis as from others perspective Jesus was not God. The Islamic view about him was that he was a messenger of God, Even in christianism the Majority view (jehovas witness) is that Jesus was not God, but son of God.
The unity church considers Jesus the master teacher and "way show-er," citing Jesus' frequent calls to emulate him rather than worship him, and the ability of others to be like him, such as in John 10:34 and John 14:12. Jesus is not worshiped as God, but regarded as someone who had achieved a complete connection with God the Father.
Now even though in Islam Jesus is treated as a messenger of God by the majority, But there is a sect Named "Ahmadia" who thinks that Jesus was resurrected again In Kashmir (India) at early 20th century.
Even in judaism they do not believe Jesus to be God. They even argue that Jesus is not the Messiah. But there is another sect who believe that Jesus is the Messiah. But the progressive movement, the Modern Reform Judaism argues that those will not be in the jewish community if they treat Jesus as their saviour.
The Contemporary Hindu Belief Like the ISKON claims that Jesus is the beloved son of Krishna who came down to earth to preach God consciousness.
According to the Buddhist belief they treat Jesus as a reformer who came down to earth for the welfare of human beings.
So, there is no uniform idea about Jesus to be the God. Even in christianity there are different views.
You have asked me that why the messages are different. In answering this, the abovementioned analysis about different religious views of Jesus would be helpful. All of them are on subjective standpoints.
Like the famous french Philosopher Jean-paul sartre(1905-1980) said that all people are right from their points of view, and None are wrong.
So, what is important to believe is a matter of our own perception. Arguments would never end if it continues in such a manner. The best thing is to leave the arguments as the reality rests with our higher selves, Our mind may try to deviate from our soul, as it is dominated by the surrounding circumstances, but if we can merge our thoughts with our soul we would get the truth. There is nothing other than Knowledge which can liberate us.
Hope that you have got your answer.
Take Care.
Sir Dent,
2 days ago you said;
"Everyone seems to want to believe that God cannot keep his word intact. You can call me crazy if you want but personal attacks help nobody. Your link doesn't work either.
If you want to comment again please do so but keep it civil."
I'll take it one sentence at a time (being as civil as possible)
1. "Everyone seems to want to believe that God cannot keep his word intact."
The point isn't that God can't keep his word intact, the point is that God has no word, God is beyond word, God is even beyond "God." The words in the bible and quran, and tao teh ching, are not the word of "God" but of man writing of "God." If you actually read what is written in these texts you will find a section on the beauty of life, and creation, and about our eternal connection with the all encompassing-loving power of the universe and all existance. They all call it a different name, but "God' like Allah and the Tao, is beyond names and word.
Then in the Bible and Quran you also find sections on how to run society, laws and punishment. These are the parts highly edited by world leaders to serve their ends, like King James who changed the Commandment "Thou shall not kill" to "Thou shall not murder" so he could kill his wives under false legal charges.
2. "You can call me crazy if you want but personal attacks help nobody."
What I said was, "...crazy people who follow [religious text books] every word." I don't assume that you follow every word of the Bible, or the Quran or Dianetics. I don't suppose you've read all of those texts. Crazy may be an offensive term, and I am sorry for not having the foresight to see that causing a problem. But to clear up, that was not a personal attack on you.
3. "Your link doesn't work either."
If you copy and paste the url into your location field on your web browser it will take you to the movie. or copy and paste this: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ - the link didn't work for me either, don't know what I did wrong.
4. "If you want to comment again please do so but keep it civil."
Did I do a good job?
Viral Prospector-
"This thread has direct translations of the Quran that shows it tells all Muslims to kill all Non Muslims."
You are right, this thread does have that. I have read the Quran, and have not defended it against its horrible words. There is also a part in the Quran that says to only chase invaders out of you land, but not to follow them to their homes.
I do notice in this thread that all the Quran translations are from the most hateful part of the Quran and the quotes from the Bible are from the most inspiring parts of the Bible. Would a reverse thread prove that Allah is peace and God is wrath?
"Every person falls short of perfect, just as the Bible promises."
You are right, the Bible does promise that. So Christian leaders, and Muslim leaders fall short yes? And the people who do not take every word in the Bible and the Quran to heart, but simply look toward the beauty in those books live peaceful lives right? But those that use the words to judge are hypocrits, like Jesus said, correct?
"So, never confuse yourself by evaluating faith by peoples' actions."
"The Old Testament of the Bible was a far different time..."
Isn't that the best way to judge someone's faith, by their actions? Isn't that what you are doing? That a few people use the words in the Quran to inspire hate and murder the entire religion is falsified? You seperate the evil words of the Old Testimate by saying it was a harsher time, well isn't that what the Middle East is still going through? Doesn't the same logic justify Hitler's murder of the Jews, because it was a harsh time in Germany, they had lost their land, were in an economic Depression and the Jewish religion threatened the status quo (as did the Pagans in Moses' day).
"The state could care less, and I could care less about the state."
You might care less about the State, but the State cares full well the influence of religion and faith over the people. The seperation of Church and State was neccesary because the Church and the State were inseperable.
"...church has nothing to do with the faith..."
You are right, but the Church is built on faith. You might call it false faith, but it is inspired and kept managed using the same book you claim as holy. You might be smart enough to read it correctly but you must admit others are not, and that the majority of people who read it aren't as smart as you.
Without faith in the Bible, the Church would have no mony, no walls, and no power. It is built on mis-guided following of the book. The fact that non-church going Christians still support the book as the unquestionable word of God helps support the Church's draw.
You say the Church has nothing to do with Faith, I say the Bible has nothing to do with Faith. The Quran has nothing to do with Faith. And that if you really want to connect with "God" put down the book and open your hearth and mind.
tanvir munim says:85 minutes ago
Dear Sir Dent,
you have asked me to give reply to the fact that Jesus was God. Well, first of all it is individual perspective of judging Jesus. Its not only you who claimed that Jesus was God. The argument will not reach any solution on that basis as from others perspective Jesus was not God. The Islamic view about him was that he was a messenger of God, Even in christianism the Majority view (jehovas witness) is that Jesus was not God, but son of God.
SirDent: It is not me that claimed Jesus to be God but Jesus Himself. Jehovah's witnesses do not make up the majority and are most likely a cult within themselves anyway.
tanvir: The unity church considers Jesus the master teacher and "way show-er," citing Jesus' frequent calls to emulate him rather than worship him, and the ability of others to be like him, such as in John 10:34 and John 14:12. Jesus is not worshiped as God, but regarded as someone who had achieved a complete connection with God the Father.
SirDent: Is the unity church the one who believes every belief system to be right? Also in the New Testament, they worshiped Jesus as he rode into jerusalem on the colt of an ass. They cried out Hosanna and spread palm branches in front of the colt. He never told them not to worship Him. Those who worshpied Him realized who he is.
tanvir: Now even though in Islam Jesus is treated as a messenger of God by the majority, But there is a sect Named "Ahmadia" who thinks that Jesus was resurrected again In Kashmir (India) at early 20th century.
SirDent: You do know that those are from gnostic writings don't you? Do you know the history of the New Testament? Less than one hundred years AD there were 5,600 hand written copies of the New Testament circulating. The other so called lost books were written later by gnostics.
tanvir: Even in judaism they do not believe Jesus to be God. They even argue that Jesus is not the Messiah. But there is another sect who believe that Jesus is the Messiah. But the progressive movement, the Modern Reform Judaism argues that those will not be in the jewish community if they treat Jesus as their saviour.
SirDent: I really don't have anything to say to this. man can teach man whatever they want, but it doesn't make it right.
tanvir: The Contemporary Hindu Belief Like the ISKON claims that Jesus is the beloved son of Krishna who came down to earth to preach God consciousness.
SirDent: Unless I am mistaken, Hindus also believe in reincarnation. Many people starve to death in India because it is forbidden to eat beef. Of course this I may be wrong on.
tanvir: You have asked me that why the messages are different. In answering this, the abovementioned analysis about different religious views of Jesus would be helpful. All of them are on subjective standpoints.
Like the famous french Philosopher Jean-paul sartre(1905-1980) said that all people are right from their points of view, and None are wrong.
So, what is important to believe is a matter of our own perception. Arguments would never end if it continues in such a manner. The best thing is to leave the arguments as the reality rests with our higher selves, Our mind may try to deviate from our soul, as it is dominated by the surrounding circumstances, but if we can merge our thoughts with our soul we would get the truth. There is nothing other than Knowledge which can liberate us.
SirDent: I can't help but realize that if everyone is right, then rapists and murderers are also right. Those who steal are right because they believe they are right. There's the flaw in the logic of Jean-paul sartre(1905-1980).
So tell me, do you think it is right to rape and murder?
It was a valiant attempt tanvir, but it seems to fall way short. I appreciate your comments tremendously.
FreeJack: The point isn't that God can't keep his word intact, the point is that God has no word, God is beyond word, God is even beyond "God." The words in the bible and quran, and tao teh ching, are not the word of "God" but of man writing of "God." If you actually read what is written in these texts you will find a section on the beauty of life, and creation, and about our eternal connection with the all encompassing-loving power of the universe and all existance. They all call it a different name, but "God' like Allah and the Tao, is beyond names and word.
SirDent: I could believe this is it wasn't for one thing. There is so much difference in the teachings of each of the books. You say God has no Word, but how does God communicate with man? He has to have a Word because He is God.
FreeJack: Then in the Bible and Quran you also find sections on how to run society, laws and punishment. These are the parts highly edited by world leaders to serve their ends, like King James who changed the Commandment "Thou shall not kill" to "Thou shall not murder" so he could kill his wives under false legal charges.
SirDent: My Bible still says Thou shalt not kill. It is the King James translation. Maybe you're thinking of someone else. Did you know that before 100 AD there were 5,600 handwritten copies of the new testament already circulating? Did you also realize that Jesus Himself taught from the Old Testament?
FreeJack: What I said was, "...crazy people who follow [religious text books] every word." I don't assume that you follow every word of the Bible, or the Quran or Dianetics. I don't suppose you've read all of those texts. Crazy may be an offensive term, and I am sorry for not having the foresight to see that causing a problem. But to clear up, that was not a personal attack on you.
SirDent: I apologize. I misunderstood what you meant. I appreciate the civil manner in which you responded also.
I do follow the Bible to the best of my ability.
Do you realize there is an unclean spirit doing everything he can to destroy all men? This same spirit was in heaven at one time until iniquity was found in him.
It would be great if all beliefs were really right. Would be great if there was no Satan. But there is such an entity as Satan. He has made his way into a lot of belief systems. Some church organizations likewise have allowed him to come in and even welcomed him.
Islam is one of those. I noticed somneone mentioned they are allowed to chase someone out of their land. Does that also mean they can follow them into their own land and still war against them?
SirDent,
I would not respond to FreeJack, he is a pot stirrer. He has no right to tell people what religion to be.
FreeJack,
Stop reading this hub if you do not agree with it. I do not comment on hubs that go against my way of thinking, it is pointless. I prefer to comment on hubs I enjoy. However, as a Christian I find your comments offensive because you are being a bully. Paraglider was respectful of everyone when he stated there are many points of view in this world. I think you should take some lessons from him.
Hi everyone,
sorry for being absent for a while - since i was really too busy ..
But I was all times, reading all shares with much interest, but I found cooling down of discusions (but it is still OK keep going)..
Ahmed it is still going just a lottle slower. Feel free to comment more if you desire.
Sweetie, I don't mind if someone stirs the pot. His last post was very civil.
That is good to hear.
oh my God forgives them ...
they do not know you well
what are you want from muslims girls ??????????
the Islam is the best religion , not charist ......
why you pictures prophet muhammad as this ???*?? ???? ??????? ???????? .. ??? ???? ??????? ???? ???????? ????
you did not know the real islam
it is rest , relax , love , connect with your ceaturer , feelings , confidence , ....etc.
All the translations you gave us are WRONG ....
in my religion we should believe there are many prophets but most believe prophet muhammad .....
we do not hate anyone , we love all , if you muslim or not .....
BUT the real fact is the qura'n is Allah's speech .....
At the end , we love all , but all do not love us because they can not understand us
Hey Norah
I think this is your first time to share thaughts on a hub, let me tell you this is not a place to convince the others about your beliefs, as we mentioned here before, show what you have .. we are listining carefully .. be care to tell you are the better than the others .. otherwise nobody will listen to you ..
hope to hear from you
Norah, I appreciate your stopping by and commenting. I do have a question concerning something you wrote.
You wrote saying that the translation I used was wrong. I have asked many times what is the right translation. So I ask you the same question.
There is research that shows Muhammad was exposed to Christianity and this could be very likely why he developed Islam. Many scholars have done research regarding this and this may sound unimaginable, but it is just something to think about. Another thing I have a question about with Islam, and this is something even Muslim women question, is why do men feel they get 72 virgins when they go to heaven. I am not trying to be rude, but Islam is a very male centered religion and does not have much appeal to me as a woman. The reason I believe Christ is the way is because belief in him leads to salvation and I do not have to learn a second language to learn about him. I can read the Bible, which is accessible to all people. God wanted his words to be understood by all and even Muslims such as Khaled Hosseini pointed out in his book the Kite Runner that Afghan people really did not understand the Koran because it was not written in their own language. Also, I know Islam gives women the right to choose to wear the veil, but in countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran this is enforced. Norah says her religion is the best, but to a modern women like myself it comes across as stiffling. Yes in Christianity if a woman is married she respects her husband, but he would not treat her like a slave or degrade her by taking multiple wives. Not all Muslim men do this of course, but the fact that the many do is disconcerting. Even friends who were Muslim told me they would never marry a Muslim man because of the way their fathers had treated their mothers and basically fell away from this religion. Polygamy is wrong in all cultures and it goes back the power structure of the most powerful men having multiple wives while the poorer ones only have one. There are just certain things about Islam that make others feel it is not the best religion. Do not take this the wrong way, but Islam is not as accessible as Christianity is to the masses.
one person asked Muhammad (pbuh), who is the most person, deserve your good company, se said: your mother, then the man asked the same question he said: your mother, when the man asked for the 3rd time (same question) he(pbuh) said: your mother, but he replied the 4th time : your father. as you see, much care and respect has gone to the mother.
Regarding polygamy, in islam it is not open, but it has high restriction in such a way that it approach the deny.
you can ask, if so why muhammad (pbuh) has taken multi-wives, the answer if simpler than you think.
each marriage, was having it's own story, on of them, an old woman, had lost her husband during the war, she was old enough.
another woman, was migrating with her husband, he died in that foriegn country, so to degnify that woman (at the same time may be he was afraid for her to be lost) he took her as a wife, so many other examples.
Muhammad (pbuh) was in a position, he can get the most beautiful and rich women in his time (if your mind goes to this point), but he didn't.
For the veil, as a personal experience with that, my wife was not wearing that veil, but at the same time covering the head (not face, not hands).
one day she decide to wear the veil (voulontary), when I ask her why is that change? she said: she notice most of the people (i mean men) look at her face, that she doesn't like. so she wear that veil hiding everything except the eye.
I respect her desire, ofcource before that, she was not wearing cagual or geans, the dress was and still vast, so the veil was a logic step (to her mind).
as I mentioned before, in this hub, islam or christianity, is not responsible for individual's sins (specially the way her father has treated her mother). so from my point of view, islam is much simple to access to the masses.
To the point of polygamy in islam:
a simple question, if we have 2 chioses: to have a community full of prostitutes or nearly all women to marry, even if they are the 2nd or even the 3rd wife?
I think the answer would be the 2nd.
ahamed, the way I read your last post is that if a woman is not married she is then a prostitute. I don't believe that's what you mean, but maybe you can clairfy it for me.
Wow, I actually agree with SirDent on this comment.
Have you checked your ceiling for new cracks Gecko? I sure hope the roof doesn't cave in on you for agreeing with me. :P
I just want to let everyone know this is the same thing the the polygamous cult here in the US the Fundamentalist Latter Saints also says. The group pretends to be Christian, but they are not really Christian because they do not believe Christ has saved them. The FLDS believes that is they have more wives they will have more favor in heaven. The FLDS also states that polygamy is good because it prevents adultery, prostitution, and lust. Even in polygamous relationships these things still exist because I read several books on the subject. Polygamy is an archaic system that treats women as chattle with each women vying for more of the husbands scant attentions. This is why Christ said a man should marry only one woman in the New Testament. Even most non-Christians tend to have only one wife because having two is harder then most men think. Also, Ahmed, I just want to let you know that only the more powerful men in Islamic countires have more than one wife when poor men can only afford to have one. Thus, it goes back to the power structure of the most powerful men being able to have more than one wife. A poor man can barely feed his family and I cry when I see Egyptian women and children having to dig through the trash for a meal. Ironically, even in polygamous relationships women and children often go without food to eat because there is not enough to go around. Polygamy has never been fair to women and children, and whoever thinks that it is really should research it. I pray and hope every woman in this world learns she has other options besides marriage, and to infer a woman is a prostitute because she is not married is ridiculous. Nuns never marry and are celibate.
Very good comment Sweetiepie. Let's see what ahmed has to say about it shall we?
Ahmed,
Another thing that might shock you is I do not mind if a man looks at my face and compliments me on my dress. I think maybe Ahmed thinks I dress like a prostitute because I am not covering my face. I am really surprised his wife does because even in Egypt this is extreme. Most women wear the hijab now, which is just like a head scarf. Also, women tend to wear very tight clothes with their head scarf, so I am sure many men look at their bodies. I have been warned by people who travel to Egypt that men actually grab you there and shout sexual things in the street. So Ahmed my question is, was your wife subjected to this abuse? It is really not the fault of Egyptian men, but they live in a society where many of them are unable to find wives. Some Egyptian men even try to meet women on the Internet for this purpose, which I found out when I met an Egyptian man on myspace once. One of the first things out of his mouth was will you marry me, then I read the state department warning about how Egyptian men use the Internet to try and lure women to Egypt for marriage. They see these women as a meal ticket for a visa to a better life, or as a week of sex. This goes back to how rich men can have multiple wives if they wish, or even one wife, whereas many young Egyptian men are single and cannot marry because there are not enough single women who want to marry poor men. The guy that used to send me messages said every time he tried to meet a woman she told him he did not make enough money and married a richer man. I cannot blame her, but poor men do not have the options well to do men have obiviously. I wonder if Ahmed is a very strict Muslim since his wife covers her face, especially since most Egyptian women shun this practice. Even wearing the hijab is a newer thing. Back in the 80's many women did not, but now even tourists are encouraged to do this because of men grabing women in the streets who are wearing revealing clothing.
More good information Sweetie. I am in the chat room for a few minutes if you want to join me.
I will go there and stop adding information. Ahmed should have his wife come and type her point of view. I wonder if he will because I want to hear what she feels about all this.
No .. of cource SirDent, surely not, but a high probability will be there, let me tell you, about ten years ago, i've read a report stating that, nearly 2 women amongst three (married) in America, has another friend (shocking huh?), what if they are not married?
Also, let me tell you, what is that type of man, who deny Hijab to his wife, if it is her desire, should he ask her to expose her body to be praised and complemented by the others? funny ..
Regarding polygamy, I can say publicily, if it hasn't been done by Mohammad (pbuh), it would be denied, if you read what I mentioned, having more than wife in islam, it is not that much open and for a man to do it openly, just for having more wives, without rules, so it is as a sin (even if he is capable to spend that much money). for me, by nature I don't prefere polygamy, but ofcourse i can never deny it.
SweetiePie, it would be a good chance for my wife to give you her point of view, unfortunately, she is not available now, she will be with me within 3 days .. i'll ask her to come and speak here to you.
mybe as you said during 80's it was not (Hijab) widely used, but it doesn't mean it wasn't there all times, let me tell you, it is even described in Quran (how to cover her neck and chest), and the women when they speak to a man they should be behind Hijab (or a cover) -- anyway, the Hijab as you see it today is a point of discussion and argument between muslims themselves.
My point exactly, women can be good Muslims without wearing the hijab. Ahmed, your comment about women in the US is either insulting or misinformed. I think you are implying women in the US are prostitutes, which is ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with a man complimenting a woman on her looks because the human body was created by God. Not all Muslims even feel like you Ahmed, and I think you are the strictest of the strict. Some Muslim women wear more revealing outfits than I do, so you cannot control everyone. If a woman wants to wear a hijab this is her choice, but you are implying any woman who does not wear one is acting like a harlot. This line of thinking does not work with modern women. By the way, guess what the most highly googled word is in Egypt and Turkey:
http://www.ansamed.info/en/news/ME03.YAM11442.html
Ahmed has done nothing to explain the situation of how women are harassed on the Egyptian streets. He may imply that women are treated like prostitutes here in the US, but in Islamic countries men are just as obsessed with sex and commit adultery just as often. Muslims sin just as much as people who consider themself to be Christian, so being a Muslim does not automatically make a person spiritually superior. At least in America and many other countries can go to the police if a man is chasing them and pulling off their clothes, but in Egypt only store owners came to the women's defense in one incident:
ahmed, I would be glad to read your wife's point of view when she can post a comment here. How would I be guaranteed it isn't just you posting or her posting what you tell her to post.
I have another question for you by the way. What happens to a woman or girl who is raped in a Muslim country?
Sure, having such harassments openly in streets, related directly to economic circumferences.
but islam don't leave things to go whatever, also the poors can marry, one day a person came to Muhammad (pbuh) asking the permission (as a bless) for him to marry, so (pbuh) asks do you have something to give it to her? the man said no, after so successive questions, the prophet said : you have to give her even an iron ring.
so, that means, every body can marry, regardless of how much he has.
so, from my point of view, the problem is in the people themselves, to have some terms related to marriage, like high class housing, or a luxurious car or .... or ....
Again SweetiePie, (and I think you are the strictest of the strict) no need for me to give my opinion at you .. but I think it is honor for me as being a muslim, to be gelious at his wife to this degree of strictness, in islam for a married woman, the only person has the right to praise, complement or enjoy her body, is only her husband - otherwise what you said is an open invitation to adultry, if I fall in a misunderstanding, so it has only one meaning, you christians are completely different than us (muslims), with much respect.
Ahmed,
Go read that BBC article and you will see this protest was not just about economic issues. These men did something very, very bad by chasing women down a street and pulling off their clothes. Part of it is economic since they cannot afford to get married due to many women in Egypt not wanting to marry poor men, but also because they are not able to date like people in other countries. I by no means agree with casual dating and sex, but the only difference between here and there is more of it happens in public. Even in Paris people are even more open on the street than here in the US, so it is all about degrees of public displays of sexuality. Muslim men look at porn and commit adultery just as often as men from any other culture, they just do it behind closed doors. I think you are probably good to your wife, but you do not know what other Muslims do in their private lives. The Muslim veil does not protect a woman because in many cases a man will violate her anyway. Bad men are bad everywhere. Muslims still commit adultery with women who wear veils, they are just highly discrete. Discretion becomes the key. People do many things behind closed doors that you would be surprised about. See we are not that different after all, the only difference is men and women are not as sexually open in public in your country.
Jealousy of your wife is never good and you should trust her enough to know she would not commit adultery against you. Even Muslims will tell you that.
1. I've read the BBC article, and easy to ask : are all people there in egypt are chasing women, tearing off their closing?? surely not .. even what happened, is not happening every day or every month even, so it couldn't be taken as a measure.
2. Another thing (confirm the big variation between us (moslems) and the others, (specially in western countries) - is DATING.
dating is simply in our culture is adultry, it has no other meaning.
3. for my wife to have a Hijab, is as much to protect her against the curious people, and lower down as much any chance for harassment, because there is no motive (a strange man doesn't no what is behind) - but no doubt, I trust her to the full limit, and thanks to go to her, because her mind become that much mature to hide every thing even her (beautiful) face from the others, as she feel this is exclusively mine, I am sure to this point I am totaly misunderstood.
Let me tell you, as I know, the nature of a women, she likes her partner to be gealous to her (because it is a meaning to taking care and love).
I do not consider jealousy love. If a man truly loves his wife he respects her and trusts her no matter what. If she wants to wear a hijab this is her choice and more power to her. However, you have completely discredited this BBC article because it said this was one event and no one every said every Egyptian guy is doing this. Nevertheless, it happened because these men do not have the freedom of choice they would like. The Western version of dating not considered adultery unless people are having sex with married people. Many people date without having sex because they can control their actions. Egypt or any other traditional society does not have to change its ways of courtship, but young people will rebel when any culture has overly strict expectations. Courtship in the US in my grandparents day was fairly chaste compared to now with men taking a young lady out to dinner or on a church picnic, and many people still go on dates like this today. Not every single date in the world is about people having sex. However, people in any culture may have sex on a date, or behind closed doors. You can choose to believe that every single Muslim person never has sex outside of marriage, but this is not the case. There is just as much adultery and fornication in Islamic countries as in the US or any other country. It just has to do with people doing it behind closed doors, but people will find the way if they really want to be together. People sin in every culture, so all I was trying to say is that the people who follow a particular religion are not superior in their actions. Certain individuals follow a religion more closely such as yourself, but there are both Christians and Muslims that sin in the eyes of God. However, I still believe Christ is the way because he only talked of marriage between a man and a woman. To me that minimizes jealousy because there will only ever be two people in that equation. Not all
Americans date by the way, some of us just choose not to get married or wait until later in life. Marriage does not equal happiness.
these verses in Quran is often used to attack Islam....
people always see these verses literally without seeing the historical background
These verses come when there is full scale war between idol worshippers and muslims, muslims is badly outnumbered and in the brink of extinction.
But see in peaceful Mecca conquest at the end of the war....no blood is spilled. No looting, killing, the rights of non-muslims are highly protected.
Muhammad has said that tke killing of non-hostile non-muslims is prohibited and any muslim who do that is expelled from the follower of Muhammad.
this is a stale subjet
That's great balinsunset. What about the verse about the girls coming into their masters before puberty? What was going on to cause this to be written?
Ahmed,
If dating is considered adultery in Islam, then why do Muslims have these sites for dating:
http://www.muslima.com/results/searchresults.cfm?s
The word dating is mentioned on these websites multiple times.
I hate to argue about religion, really......
I will not attack your religion or anything
you see...
Qur'an 24:58 "Believers, let your slave girls, and those who have not come to puberty, ask permission on three occasions: before dawn, while you take off your clothes at midday, and after the night prayer. These are your times of undress - times of privacy for you. Outside those times it is not wrong for them to move about: Thus does Allah make clear the Signs."
This verse is intended to avoid obscenity and vulgarity. Male and female who are not muhrim, are not allowed to be alone. That's very clear. This rule extends to slaves and non-puberty children.
So you see, there is no chance for unmarried couple to be all alone.
to SweetiePie
Marriage is based on love, dating sites for muslims is intended for couples to know each others so there is love (mahabbah) and compatibility. So this is not an encouragement for vulgarity and obscenity.
I understand that christianity also forbid that, unmarried people should not be all alnoe and have sex.
In Bible there is also verses that depicts incest and other obscenity and that does not mean christianity allow that.
Please don't see Islam from a single verse, the way I don't see Christianity from a single verse in Bible. Please have respect to other religion here in hubpages.
Balisunset,
I already knew this, but Ahmed implied Christians who date commit adultery. He insulted all Christians by saying this. People can date without having sex and both Muslims and Christians date. In the Western world there are many Christians and Muslims who casually date even. I just was trying to explain to him dating is not adultery because it never was. Even if you date someone and it does not lead to marriage, that is still on the road to finding the correct person. A woman can be alone with a man as long as she is in control of her emotions. Here in America business men and women work alone all the time and most of them are not having sex. People do not automatically have to have sex just because they are alone. However, many Muslim and Christian people do sin and have sex outside of marriage and behind closed doors, they just do not let you see this.
It is better to date many people, no sex involved, than to marry the first person you ever meet. By dating more people you are able to decide if he or she is the correct person for you, which prevents unhappy marriages. The Old Testament speaks of incest to show examples of how people should not act, but the New Testament does not do this. Also, research has shown that Muhammad was exposed to Christian teaching before he wrote the Koran.
I agree SweetiePie
Attacking and counterattacking won't solve anything...it leads only to everlasting fight
Christianity and Islam have many things in common, why we always put emphasis on differences instead to of our similarities, we both come from similar Abrahamic root. Islam teaching is related to Christianity and Judaism, the way Christianity is related to Judaism.
We share similar prophets, muslims consider Jesus as one of the 5 greatest God's messenger and there is even a chapter on Virgin Mary in Qur'an.
I'm tired of arguing about these verses like what are presented by Sir Dent here, the explanation is actually very clear when we see the historical background on attack and brutal prosecution inflicted on muslims by Quraisy.
Accusing muslims as brutal and terrorist is wildly inaccurate, because hundreds of thousands of muslim have been bombed at their homes in 21st century by adherents of other religions . A lot more than the victims of Islamic radicalism.
Let's hope there would be no hub like this again in hubpages, because there should be a good research and deep understanding before analyzing Holy Book of a religion, instead of literal analysis like this.
I've read Old Testament a lot, too, but I know that I cant analyze Old Testament literally, it is not as simple as that........
Well there is freedom of speech at Hubpages and people can write about any topic they find of interest. My suggestion to those who do not agree with this hub is to write a hub explaining the good points of Islam. However, what do you mean by more Muslims were bombed by non-Muslims than people who were bombed by Muslims? You need to site specific historical events to back up this statement and I think you are mistaken. The largest number of people killed by a bomb were in Japan at the end of World War II and they were not Muslim. There is no historical evidence to show more Muslims have been killed than non-Muslims by bomb, but maybe of Japan? Please do not downplay the terrorist attacks of 9/11 or other terrorists attacks because even the majority of Muslims hate this. In Egypt they are constantly fighting against terrorists attacks and these are a true threat everywhere.
Hi SweetiePie
I'm not downplaying WTC..I never say that...it's a big disaster that I wish it never happen, because it cause more hardship on muslims than to anyone else
Do you know a study by an American Academy back in January 2002?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/174053
It says that 3800 Afghans are killed by US bombs in just 3 months October-December 2001
Up until now, hundreds of thousand have been killed in Iraq and Afghan, and it is all happens after WTC tragedy.
Now you know why I hate that WTC disaster happen.......
Why nobody ever hear it?
While WTC disaster always take the spotlight.....
All tragedies should receive similar treatment from the world community.
I'm not blaming US as a nation, the country is driven by a few people.
I don't want to hate anyone......enough hatred...I just want these killings to stop
balisunset says:5 hours ago
I hate to argue about religion, really......
I will not attack your religion or anything
you see...
Qur'an 24:58 "Believers, let your slave girls, and those who have not come to puberty, ask permission on three occasions: before dawn, while you take off your clothes at midday, and after the night prayer. These are your times of undress - times of privacy for you. Outside those times it is not wrong for them to move about: Thus does Allah make clear the Signs."
This verse is intended to avoid obscenity and vulgarity. Male and female who are not muhrim, are not allowed to be alone. That's very clear. This rule extends to slaves and non-puberty children.
So you see, there is no chance for unmarried couple to be all alone.
SirDent: Thank you for the clarification. I asked for this almost since the first comment on this hub. What is wrong with unmarried couples being alone and what exactly does muhrim mean?
You said that Islam and Christianity have many things in common. I agree with that, but they are very differen. Their teachings are different and not even close to being the same.
As i see since yesterday, there were many discussions, any way ..
I was asked, if dating is considered as being adultry in islam, so what about all of this islamic sites which mentioned the word dating ..
from my point of view i have 2 comments:
1. islam, never incourage for couples (non-maried) to be left alone with no observation from the family, yes ofcource (fiances) are allowed to seat together as much as they prefere, but not alone - as there is spoken narrated to muhammed (pbuh) : for a man and a women, to meet alone, so the the satan is third of their company.
2. the word (DATING) despite of being new to us, I think, it doesn't mean for couples to be alone - it is a way for couples to know each other thru photos, sending messages, etc. (not to arrange for them to meet alone)..
another thing to mention, maybe i misuse the word adultry to your culture, as i ask one of my indian friends today regarding dating and adultry, he said: no if a contact happened to married people, so it is the only case they take it as adultry. so i have to clarify.
but in islamic culture as i mentioned, even if nothing happened, or will not happen, it is a permission of such things to happen.
also, adultry in islam up to my knowlege, is called (zena) in arabic, zena is the physical connection between any (if they are married or not) male and female.
that's why, as i see, there is a big gap between the 2 cultures regarding this particular point. even the share'at (islamic law) punish both of them with difference but zena is there and also punishment).
to the question MUHRIM? it means a person from the woman side (as being together there will be no sin under any condition) like husband, father, son, brother etc.
I appreciate your comments ahmed. I have been trying to get an answer to a question for some time now. Not sure if you're merely avoiding it or just missing it.
What happens to girls or women who are raped in Islamic nations?
The raped girl or woman, in islamic nation, is taken as a victim, but it doesn't mean this girl or woman to be left without marriage..
but listen, not any girl or woman, come and say I'am raped to be believed, there should be witnesses for that, or a doctor report stating that she is raped (supported by police report). anyway, for the raped woman, they are treated in our islamic countries as victims, and there is no objection for them to marry and live their life normally.
Thanks for ther response ahmed. From the reports I have seen, most of the times the woman is stoned to death even if she was raped because no one would be a witness. This is according to Sharia Law I have been told.
A woman does not need a witness to prove she is raped. Please any woman who reads this do not feel you cannot come forward because there are no witnesses. Sometimes a woman is raped repeatedly where there are no other witnesses beside the perpetrator. Never be afraid to come forward about these cases.
http://womenshealth.about.com/cs/azhealthtopics/a/
It is the man's fault and not yours.
Hello to Sir Dent and Seetie pie, (I have just read this for the first time)
You have all your fax wrong.
For one when you say that you got the quotes directly from the muslim book known as the holly quran, you are wrong because you can not read them becasue they are in arabic and it has been said that it is truley impossible to accuratly translate the quran from arabic to english because it is written so beautifully.
Second sweetie pie you have no write to speek of the kifes of muslim women and say they are abused because that is the most ignorant thing i have heard every country and religion have there flaws just becasue in iran there are extremists does not mean that has anything to do with there religion it is culture. No one discriminates against the christian americans who abuse there wifes, and murder, rape, and practice polygamy. we have respect to know that no one is perfect and every country, culture, race, religion, ect. has their flaws.
I can go on for a long time explaining this to you but i will not waste my time for you any longer, becasue as you read this it will go through one and probably out the other, but if you dont know about the religion and the practices and have not read the actual Holly Quran you have no right to speak and make ignoarant comments.
FYI i will bw flagging this Hub because this is going against the rules but i hope you understand that you came off very offensive.
Flag away Rowda. It has been flagged and checked and flagged and checked again.
I have to ask you a few questions though. Are the extremeists in Iran following the Qur'an?
Did Sadaam Hussein follow the Qur'an? What does Sharia Law say about a woman that is raped?
i have Flagged.
First question- they follow the quran which is true, but there is a reason why they are called extremist becasue they take what they are supposed to be doing and follow it to way extreme point. an example the women is supposed to wear a scarf on her head but it is her option to wear it or not I am a young muslim women and I do not wear, because it is our desicion to make but we will suffer our consequences and that is our descion. now in iran the men are not supposed to force this on the women but this is why they are called extremist becasue also no were in the qurn does it say that a women must cover her face but if the people and the women are willing to listen and live that why who are you or me to judge and make unimformed comments about their lifestyle. so the term extremist is give to people from all religions and cultures that tend to push it. no one is perfect and i think we all know that, and there is no write to pick at ones mistacks. I do not judge that all the men here in america practice polygamy just because there were people in utah who did so.
Second Question- this is very simple to answer, Does bush follow christianity? and as for sadaam hussien thats a whole other topic becasue what i see your trying to do here is bring up something that is totally irrelavent. You were insulting Prophet Muhammed PBUH.. please stick with that.
Third Question- According to sharia law, if a women is raped this is not her fault. The guy will be punished, and the girl would be treated the same as they would here. In the religion of islam if this was forced upon the girl they would do anything to help her and punish the man.
Sadaam Hussein is very relevant to the subject. he was a follower of Islam, just as Osama bin laden is. Are you saying they're not Muslims?
No I am not saying they are not muslims but I see that you are not looking at the stuff that answered back to you and you are trying to make it seem like I was saying something that I was not. Yes they are muslims but from your article I believe you were talking about the religion of islam and Prophet Muhammed PBUH and sadaam and Osama yes they are muslims but now what you are trying to do is bring in the war, are you not?
The war is already going on, Rowda. What I am saying and the reason I wrote this hub is there are terrorists who want to do nothing but destroy. I read the translation of the Qur'an and compared it to the teachings of Jesus. The teachings are compeltely different.
A thought just came to me. I get ragegd on for p[osting a picture orf Muhammad, but not for posting one of Jesus. Muslims say they are both honorable prophets, but it seems Muhammad has a higher calling than Jesus or any other prophet accroding to Islam. Is that true?
For one you shouldnt show pictures of the prophets in any wrong way becasue that is disrespectful.
In islam this is True that Prophet Muhammed PBUH is higher ranked but that does not mean we would ever show any disrespect to any other prophet because they all had different tasks to do, but just because you do not agree with this does not mean that you need to say such horrible things becasue it is not your place.
Well Rowda, Muhammad didn't die for the sins of the world. Only Jesus did that. Anyone who puts another above Jesus puts that person above God.
You said that Sadaam Hussein and Bin laden are muslims. You said they follow the Qur'an. You call them extreme. But they still follow Muhammad's word. Doesn't this make Muhammad extreme also?
I know that Iraq, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Libya, and Lebanon among others want to totally destroy Israel. They hate Israel and they hate Christians. The one thing Muhammad ordered them to do to Jews and Christians is "kill them wherever you find them."
This all seems really straightforaward to me. By the way if I may ask, Where are you from? I don't want an exact address, just what country would be fine. But you don't have to answer that either.
I am from Palestine but born and raised here in the USA and please with all respect do not say things you do not know. You said:
I know that Iraq, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Libya, and Lebanon among others want to totally destroy Israel. They hate Israel and they hate Christians. The one thing Muhammad ordered them to do to Jews and Christians is "kill them wherever you find them."
this is not true I am a PALESTINAIN and we do not hate jews or christians so who ever told you that is wrong and dont say muhammed said that because this is untrue. Your comments are very iggnoranrt.
in our religion we do not believe jesus is God we believe he is a prophet and he is not above God. There is only one God and Muhammed PBUH and Jesus are not GOD.
anyways I will not waste my time any longer because if you are to hard headed to look at the facts and only want to try and look at a couple of negative things thats fine and thats your life and mind not mine. I will not judge you on your belifes or anything, everyone has strong belifes and they have the right to choose what they believe.
so good day to you and luck for you in your future. Just i encourage that you really do your research before you post another HUB.
Thank you and good day
Good day to you Rowda.
Rowda,
Sorry but your words to me are not spelled correctly. I did not say anything ignorant, but you come across as ignorant by spelling words wrong. I hate the word ignorance by the way and I think it is a weak personal attack people use for attention. However, since Rowda used the word ignorant I decided to show her this comes across as disrespectful.
I never said anything disrespectful to you Rowda, but please learn how to write correctly, use respect, and get your facts straight. You try to demean me by saying I cannot mention women in Islam are abused, but I will not fall for your guilt trips. You have the right to say women in Christianity are abused and I would not contradict you because I have that much respect for your freedom of speech. In America and most of the free world people can have an alternate opinion to yours, so do not expect ue to fall in line just because you spelled a few words incorrectly LOL. I have taken a few courses on Islam, but I do not have to be a Muslim to say yes there is abuse towards women in Iran. Anyone who thinks the imposition of the Islamic state is not abusive in Iran has never read a book or spoken to an Iranian person. My co-worker's husband is a Iranian who fled Iran because he did not agree with the Revolution of 1979. He is not the only Iranian who left and many who stay now hate the current government and its strict imposition of chador and other silly laws, which is why women push the envelop very much in Tehran when it comes to dress. There was a story of a 16 year girl that was forced to have sex with a older man and who was then hanged because the judge ruled she was a whore. Guess what, the majority of people did not agree with this judge's opinion. However, they did not have the freedom of speech to speak out, so they had to do it under aliases. Of course Rowda thinks she is right about everything and will not listen to me, which sounds like something a preschool child would say to his mom or dad while refusing to eat their vegetables. I am not her parent or superior, but she has tried to treat me as inferior with her scare tactics. Sirdent will be nice to her and say thanks, but I will not thank someone who has not facts to back up what she is saying. It is her choice to go live in the Middle East after having grown up in the USA, but I think she might be an afluent jet setter who has never been subjugated to the abuse many women of the Middle East experience on a daily basis.
Rowda has one fact wrong, Egypt does not want to destroy Israel. The tourist industry is a major money maker in Egypt and most Egyptians do not agree with extreme Islamic terrorists who plot the downfall of Israel. They do not agree with all of Israel's policies, but it was President Andwar Sadat of Egypt who signed the Camp David Accords with Israelli Prime Minster Menachem in 1978, which ensured peace between Israel and Egypt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_Sadat
Unfortunately, Sadat was assasinated by terrorists, but his successor President Hosni Mubarak has maintained peace with Israel until the present. Yes this is a strained peace, but the majority of Egyptians do not want an all out war with Israel. They may not agree with the conception of Israel, but people do not want unnecessary wars or disruptions of peace for not.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/20/international/af
Egyptians may not be in love with Israel and yes Israel has done many wrong things. Honestly I think their treatment of Palestinians is wrong, which Rowda would have known if she had read the comments, but Egypt is not going to risk war when they want peace. Egyptians are too smart to put their tourist industry in jeopardy by going to war with Israel. Most people in the world seek peace and do not speak of war as Rowda has.
You really like to deal in generalizations, don't you sirdent? Egypt has been allied with Israel for quite some time now, since the camp david accords of '79, and Lebanon is not necessarily anti-Israel, nor pro-Israel. The situation in Lebanon is far more complicated than you imply. But to play supposed devil's advocate, how is Israel free from blame? Take a walk through a Palestinian refugee camp sometime, and tell me just how righteous Israel really is. You pretty much baited rowda into an argument using Saddam and Osama as your anchor points, and yet isn't that a bit off topic? Couldn't a Muslim just as easiy cite examples of people like Swaggart and Baker who misused their religious authority to gain wealth and prestige? My point is, this whole hub has proven to be a ridiculous mess, one that neither proves the truth of Christ nor reflects tolerance and compassion for others. What really grates me is how you try to imply a double standard for using images of Christ and Muhamad, and then have Islam's most revered prophet represented with a bomb in his turban. And to list all those countries and say, "they hate Christians" is beyond absurd. You of all people should see the problem in reading any scripture at face value. How many verses in our Bible need to be further explained to avoid misinterpretation and misuse? The Koran, though I do not hold it to be a holy book, is hardly different in this regard. The verse you so often refer to as a muslim call to arms is rarely interpreted as such by the Muslim world. More often, it is regarded as a permisson to wage a just war against those who would do evil. Historically, muslims have been extremely tolerant of Jews and Christians, considering us to be "people of the book." More than we can say of our Christian forefathers in medieval Europe, who murdered whole villages of Jews enroute to their liberation of Jerusalem. There is a growing fear and hatred for the Muslim world in this country today, and as someone who has seen the middle-east firsthand, and has experienced hospitality on a level never seen in this country, I find your words to be of little help in the growing culture war.
Oh, and SweetiPie, Rowda was quoting Sirdent regarding the incorrect fact.
Jreuter,
I see what you mean now, but Rowda was not respectful either. She had some facts wrong. She believes there is no abuse towards women in the Middle East, I will not fall for her disrespectful words towards me or scare tactics. Also, she needs to use the spell checker.
Sweetie,
agreed. But to be honest, I'm harder on sirdent than most others, for reasons of faith. I'll give him credit for good spelling though. (;
Good post, jreuter. (your long one, 2 back) It has become clear that SirDent is predisposed to believe evil of Muslims. His brand of Christianity resembles his brand of patriotism. He is not content simply to hold a belief. He feels the need to disparage every belief system but his own. I believe that HubPages are in error for allowing him to post the cartoon of the prophet Muhammad as a suicide bomber. The defense of free speech is not a carte blanche for offensiveness.
She addressed it to me too. She also said I was ignorant. Please reread all her posts. I know what I read. Stop trying to argue with me jreuter. Rowda was out of line too.
Rowda's Post To Me:
Second sweetie pie you have no write to speek of the kifes of muslim women and say they are abused because that is the most ignorant thing i have heard every country and religion have there flaws just becasue in iran there are extremists does not mean that has anything to do with there religion it is culture. No one discriminates against the christian americans who abuse there wifes, and murder, rape, and practice polygamy. we have respect to know that no one is perfect and every country, culture, race, religion, ect. has their flaws.
She flaunts the word ignorant too much.
I am done with this topic. However, I do not believe Sirdent is anymore disrespectful than some other hubbers in this community. One of my friends on here posted an opinion to one lady's hub and she deleted it. I also posted an opinion and this lady deleted it. My statement was fair and objective and with no explanation she just deleted it. At least Sirdent does not do this. There are so many mean remarks made in the forums here it is ridiculous. However, this topic is becoming stale as Balisunset mentioned.
whoah, who said I was arguing? My comment was to sirdent and him alone. If you've got issue with rowda, take it up with rowda. geesh, sweetie, take a couple of deep breaths, I'm not your enemy.
I am not upset, I posted this before I saw your response. I could not delete it after that. I am always calm as a flower.
My meaning when last I made a post to this hub was directed to the fact that it is a serious insult to persons of the muslim faith, of which I am not, to show images of the profit Muhammad.
In some western countries, like Denmark, publishing an image such as is shown in this hub has cause serious social problems.
Actually, myself, I have never understood why but feel we should all respect each other as much as possible. I did not mean to imply that anyone participating in this thread of comments was stupid.
Never the less, if one is aware of what, albeit, hard to believe things have happened in more than a few countries after such images have been published, one might be more careful and respectful of others religions. That applies whether we understand, appreciate, denegrate or what ever.
Sorry if my previous post offended.
hi every one, with much respect,
unfortunately, I can't be with you (online) all time ..
Sorry to say, SirDent, it is not a war field, keep in mid all time, the people passing by this hub have differnt cultures, mentalities, religions, and traditions. So we have to realise that : we are all different, and as I said this is not the place, to show I or You or Others are correct .. never..
but let every person, tell his point of view, listen to them.
regarding: the woman is stoned to death even if she was raped because no one would be a witness
I am sure, you are misinformed about that, let us go step by step, a girl is raped, and nobody knows until she go some person and say: "I'am raped", if she has no witnesses, it wouln't be believed, (even after investigation) and left (do you think when a girl say I am raped, she will be killed for that??)
But if she has witnesses, it would be verified, up to checking the verginity, and ofcource you know about dna, that time, the male will be caught as a guilty, to be punished...
the only case, the female to be punished, if there are witneses for (zena) or adultry.
I hope, it become more clearer to you.
For me, I am against the idea of closing that hub, since I believe there will be contradiction all times.
it is a good, and a very good chance to know how others think, and to know about their faith and beliefs (regardless if they are right or wrong)..
What if there are no witnesses ahmed? Most rapists do it alone and if others are watching I'm sure most of the thim they would be in on it also.
I think we speak much about that particular point, anyway .. let me tell the story, different way:
a female, is raped in absence of any witness, so she has 2 choices:
** to speak about, at this time it is a matter to get evidence, to capture the guilty.
** to keep silent, and it happened in most case, since the female nature is against (being exposed - reputationwise) - that time nobody knows, and the guilty becomes free.. but let me tell you, when a person is trying to rape (this is my opinion) will not travel with the vectim to another planet, so, she can cry, to bring attention, or to resist, and many evidences on the body would be there, if she go to the most stupid policeman, not to keep silent untill finishing everything, then to think what to do??
the only case for her to be guilty, if there are witnesses as i told before.
I think I clarified..
Thank you ahmed for clarifying. I appreciate it very much.
jreuter says:15 hours ago
You really like to deal in generalizations, don't you sirdent? Egypt has been allied with Israel for quite some time now, since the camp david accords of '79, and Lebanon is not necessarily anti-Israel, nor pro-Israel.
SirDent; That's a very good comment. All of it even though I didn't put all of it here.
Paraglider says:15 hours ago
Good post, jreuter. (your long one, 2 back) It has become clear that SirDent is predisposed to believe evil of Muslims. His brand of Christianity resembles his brand of patriotism. He is not content simply to hold a belief. He feels the need to disparage every belief system but his own. I believe that HubPages are in error for allowing him to post the cartoon of the prophet Muhammad as a suicide bomber. The defense of free speech is not a carte blanche for offensiveness.
SirDent: Believe what you want and say what you want. Would it be better for you if I posted a picture of Jesus drinking from a bucket of urine? Would that even it all out for you?
Have you ever made a mistake? Have you children ever made a mistake by not listening to what you said to them? Can you correct them without telling what they did wrong?
To tolerate something, means to put up with it no matter what. I tolerate other's beliefs, but I don't accept them as being right. If I didn't tolerate them, maybe then I would be a terrorist and try to kill them.
If you don't like what I write or what I say, why do you keep coming here?
The truth of the matter is this. All Muslims hate Israel. They blame Israel for everything that is wrong in their own countries. The Palestinian people were not a people before 1948. They were sent to Israel after Israel won their nation back. They migrated there from Jordan.
Those nations I mentioned above were all against Israel ever since and even before. maybe Egypt isn't as outspoken against Israel as they once were, but they hate Israel and would love ot see it destroyed. Israel embarrassed Egypt in the 6 day war and then again in the early 70's.
I am going to hide the comment capsule on this hub. Maybe I should have done it sooner. It has gotten out of whack and I'm to blame for it.
I will give until about this time tomorrow evening for final thought if anyone wants to add something.
First I would like to apologize if I might of offended anyone from my comments but when you feel that something you care about is being spoken about in a very cruel way you tend to get offended.
Now on the comment you made about Muslims and Isreal I say this as respectfully as possible, but please do not speak on behalf of all muslims and say that we all hate isreal and we blame them for everything that goes wrong in their countries, becasue this is not true. Palestine has been a country since way before the nineteen hundreds. Palestine dates back to hundred of centuries ago, i dont know the exact date but i willbe sure to get that if you are interested.
then in the nineteen hundreds after all the jews were being kicked out of the countries of germany and so on, the british told them they could go and take the land of Palestine and at first the jews went to go live there and they live in peace for a while untill the british supplied the jews with guns and other weapons and they began the war with palestine. And we do no have anything against jews its the isrealie government that we dislike becasue they ae taking what is not theirs and that is because they are zionist who believe the land is for the isrealies. but zionist consist of jews, christians and some muslims as well.
anways I can go for a while explaining this but it would be like a 10 page essay, so anyways maybe you should look into it a little more but noe of this is to change your opinion its just to inform you with facts.
Rowda, I would love to see some facts on that subject. It's easy to claim it to be true.
SirDent says:2 hours ago
The truth of the matter is this. All Muslims hate Israel. They blame Israel for everything that is wrong in their own countries. The Palestinian people were not a people before 1948. They were sent to Israel after Israel won their nation back. They migrated there from Jordan.Those nations I mentioned above were all against Israel ever since and even before. maybe Egypt isn't as outspoken against Israel as they once were, but they hate Israel and would love ot see it destroyed. Israel embarrassed Egypt in the 6 day war and then again in the early 70's.
--------------------------------------------------
My comment:
Muslim and jews have become brothers in Palestine for hundreds of year. They live peacefully and at the times of war, they defend their country side-by-side, they even massacred together by Crusaders.
But at 20th century, a few jews were seduced by Zionism that come from Europe and turn against their muslim brothers.
For decades Jews have terrorized and prosecuted their own brothers. Muslims farmers are expelled from their land and countless muslim communities were destroyed at 1940's.
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_%28mandate%
Thousands upon thousand of muslims are killed by jews in 20th and 21st centuries, by continuous bombing on Palestinian homes. Yet their muslim brothers are the one who branded as terrorist because of a few terrorism acts. While countless bombings by Israeli jets that killed so many innocent muslim, went unnoticed.
Even almost all UN Resolution against Israel are vetoed and annuled.
see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nation
I dream of a nation where muslims and jews have a peaceful country in Palestine once again, where everybody have equal rights, no killing and no hatred.
Sharing and justice are the key for peace in Palestine.
First I would like to tell Balisunset nice job because that is the truth. he explained it very well. as for the date i cant find exactly what time it was. Anyways im not here to convince you just to state my opinion. and its very easy to say what you are saying as the truth as well.
Sir Dent you should see this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaWn-ZBDpNg
or this page
http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2006
about extreme hostility of Jew's Talmud against Christianity.
I'm not condemning or spread hatred against Jews, this is just a comparison between Quran and Talmud.
Those verses you presented in this hub is directed against Quraisy NOT AGAINST Christians.
Muslim at that time were badly outnumbered,prosecuted, attacked and almost extinct.
Then these verses come for full counter attack instead of passiveness. Because silence meant annihilation and extinction.
But during total victory and Mecca conquest by muslim, there were no blood spilled and no looting inflicted against Quraisy. Quraisy's right is fully honored.
Ahlul Kitab, jews and christians, are embraced by muslims teaching. Even livestock butchered by Christians are good and halaal for muslims.
Muslims adore Jesus as a great prophet and Virgin Mary as faithful and good lady.
Let's be peaceful......no hatred.....no misunderstanding...the way I understand and respect Christianity
Good morning -
To answer your question to me:
SirDent: "Would it be better for you if I posted a picture of Jesus drinking from a bucket of urine? Would that even it all out for you?"
No. But thanks for the offer. It speaks volumes on the quality of your thought proceses.
And later, you said to me:
SirDent: "If you don't like what I write or what I say, why do you keep coming here?"
It may be your hub but it's a public arena. I go where I like, thanks.
And finally:
SirDent: "The truth of the matter is this. All Muslims hate Israel."
You state this as a 'truth' even when several individuals have said that they do not hate Israel. So they are not telling you the truth? You are playing games here, setting up men of straw so you can burn them down. But no-one is fooled.
SirDent. Kindly address the issues that the last few responders have posted and the ones I have posed you on my Hub response to yours. Your statements are becoming more and more troubling and I fear that your true stripes are being exposed. Please ease my conscience and confirm to me and the others here that you are not just another in a long line of "hate mongerers."
This proves nothing more than that bigots can selectively quote anything to try to make an idiotic or - in this case - idiotic AND hateful point. The Bible - if you don't just stick with a few carefully selected quotes from the New Testament - is full of murder and mayhem and God instructing us to kill hostage men and children and take their women.
A Muslim trying to write a hub like yours proving that Christianity is a hateful and murderous religion, would have no trouble finding direct quotes in the Old Testament to prove it.
So crawl back under your rock and hope that evolution - probably something else you don't believe in - will eventually do its work and turn you into a fully reasoning human being.
@ SirDent: DId you not see what I stated about the translation? I said if you have a better translation please let me know and post the verses here.Is it right to conclude on something that you yourself are not sure about . I am sorry to say but proving others religion wrong image will more likely outrage each and every preacher of that religion .Will you mind sharing the link from where you got those translations ? I would be more than happy to get you the real translations of each and every verse from Quran that you have used in this hub . Also many responders have written Quran with a "K" it only comes with a letter "Q" . Ever seen any one writing Queen with a "K" ??If you want the translations do not hesitate to drop me a fan mail .CheersKashif.
Aghast;
Perfect handle for you!
Aghast: This proves nothing more than that bigots can selectively quote anything to try to make an idiotic or - in this case - idiotic AND hateful point.
VP: Mirror anyone?
Aghast: The Bible - if you don't just stick with a few carefully selected quotes from the New Testament - is full of murder and mayhem and God instructing us to kill hostage men and children and take their women.
VP: You do not know anything that you are talking about. Find me one example that says that God commands us to go out and kill today or go take their women today? You can't. That is a lie.
Agahst: A Muslim trying to write a hub like yours proving that Christianity is a hateful and murderous religion, would have no trouble finding direct quotes in the Old Testament to prove it.
VP: Post them! However, first read them carefully. You will find zero comments telling us today to go out and kill. Please read it so you can see how wrong you are.
Aghast: So crawl back under your rock and hope that evolution - probably something else you don't believe in - will eventually do its work and turn you into a fully reasoning human being.
VP:" You sit there and call others "bigots", "idiotic" and "hateful"? That is by far the most hateful post I have read in this thread.
VP, you might want to familiarize yourself with the Bible before you go laying down challenges: "Find me one example that says that God commands us to go out and kill today or go take their women today? You can't. That is a lie."
2 Samuel 4:7 & 16:9, Deuteronomy 2:33-36, 7:1-2 & 17:3-5, Exodus 23:27, Romans 1:20-32, 1 Kings 2:8 & 10:7, Numbers 31:17-18... how many more do you want?
Hal;
Thank you for interjecting some humor is this otherwise dreary discourse. My first advice is to try harder to read posts that people make. Let me quote them for you, so you can review them. Please slow down this time, so you do not miss the words. "Find me one example that says that God commands us to go out and kill today or go take their women today? You can't. That is a lie." Please take note of the word "today". It holds great meaning in the post.
"Post them! However, first read them carefully. You will find zero comments telling us today to go out and kill. Please read it so you can see how wrong you are." This second quote also contains the word "today". That is another quote from my post. Again, just take a deep breath and be sure you catch the meaning of the post. Again, it all hinges on the word today, doesn't it?
Of course, no scripture that you referenced contains such commands from God. Everyone knows that. There are none anywhere in the Bible that commands us to kill today. Everyone knows that.
So, what are you missing? You and I were not there thousands of years ago, but historians are unanimous in classifying these as immensely uncivilized, brutal times. No Muslim, Jew or Christian would be so decieved. We share that understanding of ancient times. It was a time where God made decisions for the times. That has no impact on us today. He commands us to do the opposite as you seem to misunderstand, "thou shalt not kill." Most school children used to learn the ten commandments, but I realize that some did miss it as our society "progressed".
Go recheck whatever alleged mistranslation you referenced. Better yet, toss it. Get yourself a real Bible, and we can dialogue.
Hal,
How about you try a read what you are writing slowly. You want the truth then stop looking at your side of the facts go learn arabic and read the scripture from the real Quran word for word other than the translations, and you will see that it as well is not telling us to go out and kill today.
and you said: "Go recheck whatever alleged mistranslation you referenced. Better yet, toss it. Get yourself a real Bible, and we can dialogue." well how about you practice what you preach and toss out these alleged translations you have of the Quran and get the real Quran and then you can dialouge with the people who can actually read.
you also said: "Find me one example that says that God commands us to go out and kill today or go take their women today? You can't. That is a lie." Again practice what you preach and find me were it says this in the exact Quran.
And FYI the Quran has been the same and never changed once form when it was first brought down to earth and the bible has been changed plenty of times. So how about you go get your facts striaght before you start thinking you know more than everyone else.
Rowda, I do believe you directed that last comment to Viral Prospector, not to me.
Viral Prospector, what kind of silly game are you playing? Do you expect any holy book written millennia ago to state "In July of 2008 go out and kill and rape so and so?" I happen to have a real Bible. I don't know what candy-coated rose-colored goody-two-shoes Bible you're reading from.
I stated very clearly in my Hub response to this seething mass of prejudice and myopia that "tossing out of context quotes across the theological trenches like hand grenades is a pointless exercise." So, VP, I'm sure that there's a hate rally somewhere that is missing you. Run along now, like a good little bigot.
Rowda;
Poor Hal is going to have a lot of work to do, huh? I am not sure why you are so upset with Hal, though. Still, your comment about the Bible being changed many ties is just another lie. Hal probably will tell you that, too, though.
Sorry Hal,I meant to make that comment for VP. I appoligze.
VP nice try of tryig to runaway with the truth how about you try and act mature. And stop trying to hide from the facts read anywere and ask anyone and they will tell you that the bible has been re-written over one hundred times. So how about you start doing your research before you start preaching and stop playing your little game because you are only embarrasing your self.
No problem, Rowda. I understand it was an honest error. I believe our mutual friend Viral Prospector should bone up on a certain man named St. Paul who single handedly rewrote virtually every word of the Gospels!
Viral Prospector, if you had any factual basis to your vitriolic xenophobia, you should be presenting it to bolster your poor excuse for an argument. Are you dense enough to believe that the Holy Qu'ran instructs Muslims to kill people today? What kind of perverted Sunday School did you attend?
Hmm... I also wonder where our other friend SirDent has been in the last day or so...
This comment was made in the article and I did notice it when I first read the article but I stumbled on it and I thought I would correct it. Sirdent said:"Muslims believe Muhammad to be the prophet God" I would just like to say that we do not say the Prophet Muhhamed PBUH is a god we just believe that he is a prophet because as muslims we do not put anyone above God or even close to him.
P.S.
VP start dishing the facts.
I had the comments hidden for a few days. I was thinking of adding them to the hub. Of course I thought about whether it was legal to do that or not.
I will accept no more comments on this hub. All new comments will be deleted. I tried to allow the comments to keep going but it got out of hand. That is totally my fault and I accept responsibility for it, but I stand by my article.
As for the part about hiding the comments, I think hubbers are allowed to do that. I have seen several other hubbers who do this on their hubs. Also, I would like to mention those hubs are of a controversial nature and I think they do it for that reason. So in that matter Sirdent you did not do anything different than they did, and as you said the comments were getting out of hand.
Religion is unfortunately a good thing AND a bad thing....i'm a strong believer in individual responsibility and moral decision making. I would rather come to my own decisions of what is right and what is wrong, as long as it does not harm anybody else. Thus, i wouldnt steal, murder, fraud etc etc. Religion tends to provide a guide to some of these moral values....however, religion tends to become a collective state and a govt in it's own right. that's when things get difficult and conflicting
sir dent,
a fine idea, people are starting to get a bit nasty. Oh the power of words.
This must be an interesting topic.
I am a Christian and I believe that Jesus Christ is He who He claimed Himself to be. John 10:30. His Jewish crowd did not misunderstand Him when they were going to stone Him to death. When He asked them to specifially tell them why hey were going to stone Him to death, they replied, "not what you did (miracle of love) but what you said (John 10:30).
In our human pre and written history, it was all about Him. History before He was born is BC (before Christ) and history after birth is AD. So whether you are an atheist, Muslim, Buddism or Christian...the date on the check or letter you write today reminds us that 2,000 or more years ago, His human intervention into our humanity has influenced the world with twelve ordinary men who became extra ordinary men (Acts 4:13) thru His power (Acts 4:12).
The root of the discussion really lies here. Islam as it's practiced by the mainstream is not violent. However, Islam as it "was" practiced in the first three centuries - which followed the Quran exactly - was. Of that, there can be no doubt.
I think the misjudgment here is to have painted Islam in a broad stroke as it applies to today.
Never the less, Islam is being practiced by Islamists and radicals as if it were the days immediately after Mohamed. They even quote the verses above as their primary texts and justification. They have history as their proof that it was originally practiced that way. Otherwise - they must simply be "Misinterpreting" the verses like so many here say that Mr Dint is.
But the problem with that illogic is that the Islamists aren't just making this stuff up - they have proof. It's in the Quran. They are not hijacking a peaceful religion at all. They in effect are attempting to return it to it's original methods and roots. The so-called peacefulness of modern Islam came about over a period of many centuries. The Islamists are concerned about this historical drift. Their writings are full of condemnation for the adherents practicing it peacefully.
They're mad at them and us.
They in turn believe that the Islam of modern peace - has itself been hijacked by the Islam "is peace" crowd. They're merely trying to return it to it's foundations - thus they are fundamentalists.
I don't see anyone here writing the Islamist message boards and demanding them to stop insulting the prophet - or scathing them to remove their radical Islamist rhetoric on pain of being reported to the peace police. Certainly not with their real name and address. Go figure.
Islam is submission - not peace. And if the fundamentalists have their way - they intend to slaughter everyone into a peaceful submission. Nothing could be clearer.
In the West we are uncertain as to what truth is; in fact, it's impossible for modern America to discuss it. If truth is at the discretion of the individual then no truth really exists. It's a miracle our founders agreed on anything that was "self evident".
For one to say that Islam is peace is the same as an Islamist fundamentalist saying that Islam is Jihad. (or the relativist that says we are all wrong and we're all right. So in their mind - with their logic - we must wait until our day of submission comes and then we'll see who's right.)
Who's right is learned through discussion. Who's wrong is learned through war. I would much rather discuss the issue incorrectly than not at all. Otherwise, if we follow the advice of the reactionists above - we can't condemn Islamists either. You have already decided what's right by not allowing discussion - no matter how misguided.
And that my liberal minded discussionists is a cunundrum your mental gymnastics can not circumnavigate.
someone say THE HOLY QURAN is like a story book nothing else. plz visit folloing link and try to understand miracles of QURAN.
Sir Dent,
After viewing a hub that was a tirade against you, I had to investigate in person and see for myself what all this commotion was about. From all the comments, you hit a nerve with many people. I am reminded of what Paul asked, "Do I become your enemy becasue I tell you the truth?"
The hub is strong. I am glad that there are some places where freedom of speech still exists and am glad that you are not intimidated by those who rail against you.
Best Regards,
J D Murrah
I appreciate all the comments. I do mean all of them, even from the beginning comment. Comments are now once again being approved, but only those which are civil. No personal attacks on anyone will be tolerated.
No comments will be seen by others until I approve them myself on this hub.
Sir Dent, Your hub is a one-sided attack on Islam and an apology for Christianity. I have never read the Koran, but I don't trust your highly selective quotes. The Bible is also full of contradictory and barbaric passages. The truth is that there are fanatics in nearly every religion--Christian, Islamic, Judaism and others. For some strange reason nearly all religious extremists of many faiths appear to me to have an unhealthy and uninformed preoccupation with sexuality--virginity, masturbation, birth control, etc. Countless atrocities and wars have occurred in the name of Jesus. Muslims hardly have a monopoly on this tendency. Uncivilized Muslim extremists such in the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and certain Sunni and Shiites are causing a lot of trouble in the world today. This cannot be denied, but that does not mean that their actions can be blamed on the Muslim faith.
Ralph Deeds - if one can not blame the extremism of 150 million followers of Fundamental Islam on Islam - what then may we blame it on?
Prophesy Teacher, where do you get the 150 million extremist figure. In the Detroit area where I live there are plenty of highly assimilated, non-extremist Muslims. If any are extremists among them they keep their views to themselves. My impression is that the majority of Muslims in the world today are not extremists. It's a serious error of fact to equate Islam with extremism. Many extremists today are Muslims but most Muslims are not extremists.
Wait... don't both Christians and Muslims believe in the Ten Commandments?
People rip Christianity on here all the time. The religion forum is full of antagonizing banter yet no one seems to rally around the Christians. People love to wave the free speech flag until someone says something they don't like. Good job expressing how yoy feel
Ralph - Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia is the state religion - a fundamentalist view of the Koran. 26 mill people. In Iran - Sharia law is imposed on 80 million people. Gaza has recently succumbed with 600 new Mosques built or converted in just 16 months where people are being forced to attend. Lebanon is virtually devoid of Christians in just 6 years. Pakistan is at least 1/3 fundamentalists; and the groups there support and teach in the Madrassas - the ones that taught the Taliban. In Sudan - 300,000 people have been slaughtered by the Arab Sunni majority following Islamist precepts.
Here's the point. There is no point in pointing out that it doesn't exist as if saying it doesn't exist will make it go away. When most people talk about these things they aren't really talking about the peaceful Muslims anyway. Why would they. It is almost always the non-peaceful ones being talked about.
The Iranian revolution goes back to the 60's when Khomeini was thrown out. In Saudi Arabia back to the 1800's when Ibn Saud brought Wahhabism. In the Sudan, the English fought a war with 100,000 radicals who thought the Mahdi had come with his prophet. Winston Churchill was a yoeman saw it - and wrote a book about it when he was only 18. (The River War) It was awfully brutal.
Many people standing up for Islam do so as if radicalism is happening in a vaccum - or as if what is happening is relegated to a few 100,000 radicals. Nothing could be further from the truth.
These radical movements spring up on their own - independently of each other and use the Koran and hadith as their text. Their websites are full of qoutes in context.
One must always remember that these movements not only want to destroy the West - but they want to destroy Islam as it is practiced today. They claim they want to take it back to it's origins. There's only a few places they can get these notions - and these movements have broken out throughout history - not just in our day.
So once again, what are we to blame it on. How can we discuss it if we make off limits all things that can help us understand it - especially by pointing out the obvious - that most Muslims are peaceful. Most Germans were peaceful in the 30's as well - but the Nazi theology was in full view for anyone willing to see it. Do you know what the peaceful Christians said then? They said, but Germany is a Christian nation - that could never happen.
"Christianity, the religion of love" - HAH!Just look at this:Luke 14:26 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren,and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. "Consider the following regarding self imposed mutilation:Matthew 5:29 " And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."Matthew 5:30 " And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. "I wonder what is required for a pedophylic priest to cut off, if that part of his body made him sin?Would he need to cut off his testicles or his penis? perhaps both?The other alternative is to renounce Christianism completely...The idea behind this is that if you are a Christian, you have to follow the laws of Christianism. If you dont follow the laws of Christianism, you cannot count yourself as a Christian.
The big problem with Christianity is that it dont have strict limit of what is and what is not Christianism. It is a vague religion. A principle of that the strong should help the weak and the rich should help the poor could count as religion. To establish fair taxation laws so that the rich pay more taxes than the poor could be counted as Christianism, but it could also count as "Socialism". In todays world Christians are among the most Anti-Socialistic people on the earth.
Another part of Christianism that is not regulated is wars. A Christian may wage war against another Christian, but it is not clear if such an action should be punished with hell or not. In Islam the sin of one believer killing another gives hell as a reward.
So, "the way" you follow as a Christian is something that is not clearly defined, a very vague thing. Christianity by default is NOT democratic, it does not define a constitution and it is poor on laws. "Do good and forbid evil" is something that Islam teaches, but there is not an equivalent in Christianity.
So he says "follow me, im the path...". ok, sounds good, but where is the path, the laws, the enlightment? The knowledge?
Besides that, not a single word written by Jesus Himself is preserved unto this day. It is all hearsayings by other people. So the message that Jesus brought forward is NOT available.What did he wrote with his own hand? where is it? - Bring me those words if you are truthful...
In the future I think it is best not to compare two religions because it seems to have offended so many people. I still believe you had the freedom of speech to publish this, but since so many people have come down on you so harshly for doing so I would step back from comparing religions. I think as Christians it is better just to focus on our own faith anyway, but this is just my suggestion and you can do as you like. What I find wrong is so many people acting indignant about you making hateful comments when there has been no recourse for others who do the same thing. However, not all things are equal in this lifetime.
Being Christian myself, I firmly believe that Satan can twist anything to do what he wants. Called 'the Great Deceiver', there's a lot of things He and his followers can do. First, he cans end spirits as messengers of light. I'm not denying Mohammed saw a spirit, the question is what kind (good or evil)? Same thing with the mormons. Joseph Smith saw something, no doubt in my mind whatsoever. The question is, what?
After the apostolic church there was a decline in miracles and actual visions of divine purpose. Therefore, my understanding and convictions say that mormonism was created outside the actual written word of God (book of Mormon is NOT the Bible in any way shape or form), and so I believe Mormons are not a real sect of Christianity. Not as nearly cut and dry is Islam. Islam pulls text straight out of the OT, but diverges entirely from what the church has established as the Holy Scriptures (numerous councils pre-1000 A.D.).
Islam and Christianity simply cannot coexist together as universal truths if you believe either one. I've never seen a muslim say that Jesus was the Christ. He's a 'good prophet.' I've also never seen a Christian claim Allah is YWHW and that Mohammed is a holy prophet. It's a battle that will go on until the end of time, believe what you will. Either way, my convictions lead straightway to the cross and away from Allah, others will strongly disagree. Truth will eventually reign supreme, that much is sure.
Good article :)
thegecko says:33 hours ago
Wait... don't both Christians and Muslims believe in the Ten Commandments?
SirDent: I have no idea what Muslims follow except the Qur'an.
Hexxor, for some reason I had your comment denied. I don't know why but I must have clicked the wrong choice for it. I have questions to ask you and any other person who wants to comment. Can you refute the Qur'anic verses I posted above? Can you show them in the true meaning as many have said they are taken out of context, while yet failing to put them in proper context?
The questions above I ask of everyone who has commented here. It seems everyone wants to attack other verses or people other than what this hub is written about.
I am trying to stay out of this debate, but the comments warrant my participation. I will post as minimal as possible.
I believe they do, indirectly.
You titled your hub "Christ or Muhammad?" as if you were going to provide an objective consideration of the two historical religious figures, but you proceeded to provide a one-sided screed excoriating Muhammad and praising Christ. I happen to have been born and raised a Christian, however, it seems to me that both Muhammad and Christ inspired religions with long histories, good and less so, and millions of adherents. Why not deal with the pluses and minuses of both. Why not respect both for their good points and criticize their faults.
In the case of Christ, it may be useful to distinguish "Christ" from Christianity which has a checkered history and and a diverse present which offers much to criticize--such as the widespread pedophilia covered up by the Catholic hierarchy, an unhealthy preoccupation with sexuality-virginity,-homosexuality, masturbation and the like; demanding belief in creationism and other ridiculous denials of centuries of science, opposition to potentially life saving stem cell research in the name of right to life while at the same time supporting capital punishment, etc,, none of which would be condoned by Jesus if anyone were able to ask him.
I'll bite Ralph. Make a list of the pluses of Islam. We can go from there if you wish.
The pluses of the teachings of Christ are this. The law says if you sin you die. Jesus took then place of each and every sinner by dying in their place. He paid the penalty for your sins and mine. I no longer have to pay the penalty of the law, if I merely receive Jesus. It is that simple.
I'll be waiting for your response. :)
Please delete my last post. I posted it after erroneously thinking my earlier posts had been deleted. I see now they have not. Apologies. Sorry!
SirDent - criticism I have of Christianity - in response to your last post - how convenient for Christians.
thegecko says:2 days ago
Wait... don't both Christians and Muslims believe in the Ten Commandments?
SirDent: If they follow the ten commandments, why is there so much killing from them?
I am still waiting for the pluses from the side of Islam. What is good about them? What have they cointributed to society as a whole? etc. . .
Like everyone has pointed out... that is a question to be brought on an individual basis. If you look at any religious group as a whole, it will fail close scrutiny to adhering to its own belief system.
I am still waiting for someone to show me something good that has come from Islam.
{{I am still waiting for someone to show me something good that has come from Islam.}}
Islam has given to Muslims a clear code for living a good life, in its five pillars of Islam. This is all that any religion can do - give to its people a belief system and code for living on earth. That is all that Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism have also done.
Unless you're suggesting that Christianity give us the industrial revolution and steam engines??
You likely don't have the courage to make this comment public, but go read
http://hubpages.com/hub/How-The-Great-Accomplishme
and learn how not to be an ignorant fool.
Hal, I already read it. I also approved your comment just to show who is really ignorant and hateful. Your attack on me has been noted by nearly everyone in Hubpages.
You have called my hub here a hate hub. I call it writing what I see. Your hubs have attacked me personally. I attacked nobody. Do what you want, but rest assured you will pay the price for your attacks on me.
I'm wondering if you can include a picture of Andres Serrano's "Piss Christ" below the Mohammad cartoon, to show an image that Christians also found incredibly offensive.
No livelonger, I won't do that. Muhammad was a violent man who did what he wanted to whomever he wanted. His followers do the same today.
THANK FOR THIS,, INTERESTING STUDY,, LEARNED SOMETHINGS I DIDNT KNOW
Thanks for the comment Silly. I appreciate it very much.
AFTER READING SOME OF THE REPLIES AIMED AT SIR DENT,, I FEEL THAT HE TOUCHED A NERVE IN SOME OF YOU AND YOU ALL CANT STAND IT THAT HE IS RIGHT SO THATS WHY YOU ATTACK HIM SO BAD,,,,,,SO ALL I CAN SAY IS KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK SIR DENT,,,,,,LET THE TRUTH COME OUT
Thanks you once again Silly for the comment. I appreciate it very much. One thing for sure, this hub has touched a nerve with many. Some because it is truth, others for different reaons.
Why do Muslims consider the gospels corrupt? Did not Saint Paul speak of Muhammad, 520 years before Muhammad was born, in 50 A.D.? Galatians 1:8-9:
“But even if we or an Angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!”
This applies precisely to Muhammad. He claimed that an angel spoke and gave him the Qur'an.
Is this angel (or celestial being) and Muhammad eternally condemned? Did not Saint John speak of Muhammad 500 years earlier? Revelation 19:20:
“But the beast was captured, and with him the False Prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the Mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.”
- "mark of the beast" (Islam, 'submitting to the will of the beast') Islam is faith and fear in the beast; to submit is to take on his mark.1
- "image" (Kaaba; his statue may still be inside)
Is Allah of the Qur'an eager to throw humanity into "the Fire and never let them out" (Sura 5:37); eager to "roast" humans "replacing roasted skin with fresh skins" only to "roast" again and again (Sura 4.56); with a penalty "double for all!" (Sura 7.38); eager to see heads "covered in fire" and "scalding water," and eager to have humanity "flogged with irons" (Sura 22.19-21); eager to hear humans "cry endlessly for help" as their bodies "turn to ash" (Sura 21.15); eager to "destroy entire populations" (Sura 17.16); eager to fill hell with humans until "hell is full" (Sura 50:30)? This Is Allah of the Qur'an (a fallen angel or other being)...but Not the God of Abraham nor of Jesus Christ. I know God... and this is Not Him.
I do not wish to be your worst nightmare; I do desire to be a blessing to you. Islam is truly the greatest stumbling block to salvation thru Jesus Christ.2
Who wrote the Qur'an? Was there a witness to the claims the Qur'an makes? No.3 (Muhammad never witnessed anything, he only Received the Qur'an. Sura 24.54, his "duty is only to preach..") Should you believe the Author of the Qur'an and follow along blindly?! Is not the author a celestial being, like a fallen angel? Do not angels know what the Almighty knows and can they twist the truth? Umar ibnu’l Khattab tells that Muhammad "shivered, his mouth foamed and he roared like a camel," (typical of demon possession). According to Amr ibn Sharhabil, Muhammad told his wife Khadija that he believed to be possessed by demons! According to Al Waqidi, Muhammad feared the symbol of a cross!
Unlike Muslims, I know that my salvation is sure. Meanwhile, not even Muhammad was sure! Sura 46.9 and Hadith 5:266, "by allah, though I am the apostle of allah, yet I do not know what allah will do with me." Muhammad's bones lie buried in Medina but Jesus is alive and in heaven.
Good works alone will not save you. But rather if you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe this in your heart. As King David said, "my Lord said unto my Lord." The Almighty has given Jesus a great portion among the greatest; king of kings and prince of peace.
Remember Jesus' commandment; "love your neighbor." God's laws and the prophets can be summed up by: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." The Qur'an and the Muslim allah fail in this teaching.
Christians have a personal relationship with God and know Him. Islam is only obedience and repetition. With Christ there is firmness in belief and knowledge; superstitions do not exist. This letter is difficult for the faithful Muslim. Even so, may the reader be blessed even unto salvation thru Jesus Christ our Savior. The Truth will set you free.
1 Mark on forehead: the mind being the seat of knowledge and belief. Mark on right hand: the left is not used for such things as Muslims know. (Rev 13:16)
2 "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." (2 Thes 2:11) This truth is to 'love your neighbor'. The Qur'an and the Muslim allah fail in this teaching.
3 The miracles and crucifixion of Jesus were witnessed by many and documented; over 500 witnessed Jesus ascend to heaven after his resurrection from the dead; [The Test of two to three witnesses, Deuteronomy 19:15, 17:6, Mathew 18:16, John 8:13] [Qur'an, test of two to four witnesses, Sura 4:15, though it does not stand on this principle - the Qur'an stands by itself; one author who changes history but with no witnesses]. God expects a person to believe another who has at least two to three witnesses; God can judge a person guilty for believing in the Qur'an because it has No witnesses to its claims and yet calls a lie an account which has many witnesses.
Ahmidtruth, I appreicate your input here. You made some very good points. Muslims do believe the gospels to be corrupt and most of the Old Testament also. They choose what they want and use it to pint to Muhammad as being a great prophet of God, but they fail to realize who God really is.
I hope there are some good replies to your commnt here. You have done well.
I just noticed your conclusion appears to be as long or longer than the rest of the Hub :)
I'm not sure what you mean Gecko. Would you care to elaborate?
The first part of your article is about 1,100 words, but your conclusion and after is around 1,500 words. How can a conclusion by longer than the actual explanation? From a structural standpoint it would appear you made way more inferences than you provided evidence for =D
However, I'm just pulling your chain. Its because you continue your argument after the conclusion. Perhaps you should consider re-organizing the Hub.
SirDent:
Re: your response to Ahmidtruth, aren't you picking out what you want out of the Qur'an to make your point, and ignoring the rest? How is that any different?
thegecko says:16 minutes ago
The first part of your article is about 1,100 words, but your conclusion and after is around 1,500 words. How can a conclusion by longer than the actual explanation? From a structural standpoint it would appear you made way more inferences than you provided evidence for =D
However, I'm just pulling your chain. Its because you continue your argument after the conclusion. Perhaps you should consider re-organizing the Hub.
SirDent: I understand what you mean now. I addeed more to the hub after all the comments came about. Maybe I should reorganize, but I actually thought it had died down to where noone was going to comment anymore.
This is for you Maddie. Can be found at http://i-cias.com/e.o/islam.htm
THEOLOGY AND IDEOLOGYThe teaching of Islam is that there is only one God. The original teachings of the two religions was exactly the same as what is found in Islam today, but man has altered the lore given to both groups. Nevertheless, this teaching in Islam, has made Muslims show a lot of respect for both Christians and Jews, as they are considered People of the book, ahl al-kitab.
Maddie Ruud says:18 hours ago
SirDent:
Re: your response to Ahmidtruth, aren't you picking out what you want out of the Qur'an to make your point, and ignoring the rest? How is that any different
SirDent: You are right. I used a few passages. I also asked for clarification right from the beginning of this hub. Mostly what I got was threats, name calling, etc. . .
I still wait for clarification.
dear bett b
thank you for bringing forth some intelligence. i didn't notice a single statement that you made blasting this ignorant and bias hub that a sensible person would not agree with. Of course your eyes will likely never see this comment unless i post it elsewhere. mr.dent seems to be a deletaholic when the topic is something he doesn't understand or disagrees with.
ps american
PS american, your last comment was posted 6 times. It said nothing intelligent nor could I even understand what you were saying. It was spam.
By the way, your IP shows on comments. It took less than 5 minutes to find your email address. If you want to discuss something intelligently, I am all up for that. If not then rest assured, I will delete your comments.
What an atrocious hub.
What is atrocious about it Sulfi? It's easy to say something is bad or that its good, but what is it that you think is atrocious?
1) You are accusing Muslims of Paedophilia based upon doctored excerpts. It would be very easy to select pieces from the Bible stating much the same.
2) Read your history. The Islamic age was an age of enlightenment, advancing science, theology, maths and medicine, amongst other things. Hardly the bloodthirsty barbarians you imply. The knowledge of the Greeks, Hindus and Persians would have been lost without the Islamic houses of knowledge. In addition, Salah Al-Din was more of a gentleman than the Crusaders. The Templars.....they really promoted the peaceful side of Christianity, apart from the murder, torture and rape.
3) The Muslims never forcibly converted anybody.
4) Saying that "All Muslims are....." is like saying "All Christians are....." You all complain quickly enough when Christianity comes under attack.
5) I am a Christian, and Hubs like this make everybody think that we are all narrow-minded, racist bigots.
6) I have many Muslim friends. Not one of them is violent or extremist.
7) You say that Christians never build armies or fight wars. Charlemagne, the Holy Roman Emperor, had a very nice sideline in mass Genocide and forced conversion.
8) Muslim and Christian leaders throughout the world are setting up inter-faith initiatives. This type of one-sided opinionated article sets the process back.
9) The Good Samaritan was not Christian, but was held up as an example that non-Christians performing good deeds are loved by Christ.
10) A couple of years ago, 60 million Muslim Pakistanis signed a petition against extremism and terrorism. Pretty much the entire adult population of that country.
Next time you choose to post such a wicked Hub, at least do your research.
No SirDent, you didn't touch a nerve or anything.....all what you said, everything in this article is just not right, not true awaaay from the truth and filled with hate
The things you said about Islam are just not true, hust like in your other hubs, No one can say this about ANY religion , ALL religions has the smae aim : to worship God and have peace on earth, Islam is not violent, christianity is not violent, judism is not violent
Muhammad was NOT a violent man this is offensive to us Muslims,
and to everyone else If You wanna know anything about Islam you have to get your information from an Islamic source or a Muslim.
The verses you translated from Quran : you choose what you liked, every one of these verses has a story and was applied to a specific situation in the past, freedom of religion is an important issue in Islam AND there's alot of Christians here in our Islamic countries, not one is forced to do anything
it's really disappointing to read such an article form someone who claims to be christian, for as I know it's a religion of peace just like other religions
I think you, Sir is writing such hubs to make a debate and get some traffic or something, I dunno and I can't find a reason to such hate
Read some true info about Islam:
Sufidreamer says:6 hours ago
1) You are accusing Muslims of Paedophilia based upon doctored excerpts. It would be very easy to select pieces from the Bible stating much the same.
SirDent: I accuse Muhammad of Pedophilia.
2) Read your history. The Islamic age was an age of enlightenment, advancing science, theology, maths and medicine, amongst other things. Hardly the bloodthirsty barbarians you imply. The knowledge of the Greeks, Hindus and Persians would have been lost without the Islamic houses of knowledge. In addition, Salah Al-Din was more of a gentleman than the Crusaders. The Templars.....they really promoted the peaceful side of Christianity, apart from the murder, torture and rape.
SirDent: History states that Muhammad was a warrior who conquered nations and cities. It had nothing to do with enlightenment. It had everything to so with gaining control over other people, gaining power and authority and riches.
3) The Muslims never forcibly converted anybody.
SirDent: Tell that to all the Christians who are persecuted all around the world. I read an article that said that two sisters were charged with lying because their father converted to Islam for a brief period when they were younger and they knew nothing about it. They said they were Christians but the government said they are muslims. Both were arrested and incarcerated for a few days.
4) Saying that "All Muslims are....." is like saying "All Christians are....." You all complain quickly enough when Christianity comes under attack.
SirDent: All muslims who follow the Qu'ran.
5) I am a Christian, and Hubs like this make everybody think that we are all narrow-minded, racist bigots.
SirDent: Since you are a Christian, how do you account for the lack of respect for your savior from Muslims?
6) I have many Muslim friends. Not one of them is violent or extremist.
SirDent: Have any of them ever told a lie?
7) You say that Christians never build armies or fight wars. Charlemagne, the Holy Roman Emperor, had a very nice sideline in mass Genocide and forced conversion.
SirDent: A roman emporer does not mean he was a Christian. By their fruit you will know them.
8) Muslim and Christian leaders throughout the world are setting up inter-faith initiatives. This type of one-sided opinionated article sets the process back.
irDent: And the Word of God says to not have dealing with evilness and wickedness. Be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers.
9) The Good Samaritan was not Christian, but was held up as an example that non-Christians performing good deeds are loved by Christ.
SirDent: The good Samaritan did a righteous act. One act does not make the whole person righteous. Even those who are wicked love their children and feed them and care for them.
10) A couple of years ago, 60 million Muslim Pakistanis signed a petition against extremism and terrorism. Pretty much the entire adult population of that country.
SirDent: And yet there are still terrorist organizations in Pakistan just as in India. The Mumbai terrorists acts have been the talk of the town so to speak, but very little is mentioned of the Christians who have been killed, beaten, raped, homes burnt, churches burnt.
Next time you choose to post such a wicked Hub, at least do your research.
SirDent: You haven't shown me that it is wicked nor even tried to reprove what I wrote. Words are easy to come by. Show me some proof. There are over 300 comments on this hub, but yet not one single person has actually refuted anything I wrote and shown the evidence.
Mezo says:3 hours ago
No SirDent, you didn't touch a nerve or anything.....all what you said, everything in this article is just not right, not true awaaay from the truth and filled with hate
SirDent: Show me some actual prooof that Muhammad was not a violent man. In fact, show me the prooof that what I wrote is false. That's all I have asked for since the first comments were made here.
This is a great hub. I admire you for speaking out about this. I have seen so much about how this belief is peaceful. But, I have a friend in New York who lost friends on 9/11 and she's done a lot of studying about the same things you have, and, since she's Jewish, she didn't know a whole lot about it until she started to study it and ask people about it. She told me a while back about some of the things you have on here. It was shocking and scary to me. I'm going to tell her about your hub. She wants people's eyes opened so that type of thing wont happen again. God definately has His hand on you. Thank you!
Thank you for the comment and encouraging words ASU. I appreciate it very much.
SirDent- Jesus is the Son of God and he showed the world both by his teachings and example about his "Godliness" but I felt bad that when you want to show something as good than one doesn't necessarily have to show the other as bad. Your description of Muhammad would be deeply disturbing to many devout Muslims i.e., "Muhammad didn't care if he lied or not. From what I researched and found out, he is a liar, a murderer, a pedophile and a thief."
I don't need a proof that Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) wasn't a violent man. Why should people consider everything YOU said true?
You sir,is the one who needs to prove what you are saying as this info is just not true, not based on an honest truth seeking attitude, you aren't even trying to understand the meaning of some of what you wrote although it's very clear, i'll just pick up one of your claimed evidences that we are "bad":
===================================================
Sirdent says :
Qur'an 24:58 "Believers, let your slave girls, and those who have not come to puberty, ask permission on three occasions: before dawn, while you take off your clothes at midday, and after the night prayer. These are your times of undress - times of privacy for you. Outside those times it is not wrong for them to move about: Thus does Allah make clear the Signs."
I may be off a little here but it seems what Muhammad is saying is to allow them to come into your private room during the times that you undress. This is really sickening to me. The girls who have not yet come to puberty going in to be with men while they're undressed.
========================================================
The verse is teaching the ethics of permissions inside houses.
Are you kidding, Mr.Sirdent or you are just getting it wrong?? it clearly says :
(((Outside those times it is not wrong for them to move about)))
which means that it's wrong for the slave boy/girls (people had slaves in the past) to come to your rooms in the times when you are naked/aslees, but in other times when you are dressed they can enter your rooms for as they are just children.
So why do conclude THE OPPOSITE from a verse that is just so clear and obvious? Am I the one who needs to prove my point?
If I'm going to claim that the earth is square in shape then I'm the one who needs a proof NOT otherwise.
please be honest in your "research" though it seems just like pure HATE and you sir, are writing just what you want and pasting anything from Quran even if it contradicts your own words...
Read my hubs, search in Islamic websites if you want to know more about Islam...
CW, when something is shown to prove other things wrong, does it not have authority?
Muhammad was not a prophet of God. He invaded cities and nations to gain wealth and power.
Mezo, I may be wrong with that one verse.
What about the others? What about these two.
Bukhari:V4B52N220 "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been made victorious with terror.'"
Qur'an:8:12 "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."
Did he use terrorism? If not, why does he mention it?
If you were to read the other comments. some claimed that I used a bad interpretation. I then searched for others. I even used some of their sites they mentioned. It's all basically the same.
Do you follow the Qu'ran letter for letter? One more question, have you ever told a lie in your life?
SirDent- I am not trying to generalize based on that verse which Mezo clarified. But all I am asking you to consider is this: If I am trying to look at something with a predetermined agenda whether be it good or bad we will accordingly feel that what that means is what we want to " believe" that is and it may or may not be truth all the time.
Why do you ask have you ever told a lie?
Their would be many instances when we may lie not to hurt the feelings of the other person. When you deducted on another hub that I am a "terrorist" and if you ask me face to face whether you felt bad by it I might say NO not to hurt you (even if I did feel bad).
Or maybe you asked that question for if you lie you are a sinner then ... and so on
Never the less I do pray for you since such a hub may not be conducive to even yourself.
What about a pre-proven fact CW? Muhammad did nothing but speak and nothing he said was proven in any way. Jesus spoke and proved what He spoke of.
SirDent- When you say pre proven fact do mean all your conclusions about Muhammad have already been proved and you are just reiterating it. This was what I was trying to say earlier that one is 100% wrong and the other 100% right belief you possess even before beginning your research then pick and choose convenient quotes to come to your own "conclusions".
I agree it takes us years to develop an opinion or form a belief. I also know that except for rhetoric nothing we say to each other may help either of us to see the other's point of view. I don't have an understanding of your background, interactions with others and experiences in life hence it wouldn't be easy for me to say why & where your viewpoints come from. All I wish is that you do advance spiritually and be a little open to people who may not hold the same viewpoint as held by you.
What I meant by pre-proven fact is that Jesus did live and was exactly who he said He was. Too many writings that speak of Him personally besides the Bible. Josephus called Him a man but also stated, "If it be lawful to call Him a man."
It has nothing to do with Muhammad. Muslims say Jesus was merely a prophet. When they say that, they are bringing Jesus down to a lower point than what he actually is. Of course some say He didn't die on the cross but escaped death with the help of his disciples. The same ones who fled I imagine.
I have also read where some say that it was Judas on the cross and not Jesus. The evidence is out there for anyone who wants it. A person just has to search for it.
Opinions are easy to come by. They can also at times change on a daily basis as easy and chaning clothes. Whose opinion counts most? Mine? Yours? God's? I have told people before that my opinion means nothing. I have also said that I am never right. God is always right. If I speak what He says to speak, it will always be right no matter who agrees or disagrees.
On a side note, you came into this discussion very late. This hub was published near the end of June. From the very first comment, I asked for clarification of my interpretations of the Qu'ranic verse I posted. I asked for better translations from those who said the translation I used was wrong.
So show me some evidence that this hub is wrong. I take it you believe there is evil in the world along with demonic spirits. If not then it doesn't really matter then does it.
SirDent- Is it always important to be right or wrong (and again that depends on whom you talk to). Yes I came late to the party and you have made many comments. But I do admire the fact that you admit when you are wrong and praise the word of Jesus which is right. I do believe their is evil in the world although I have personally been blessed with a charmed life so far with wonderful parents, great family, education and career. I wish you also have a safe and wonderful holidays.
Okay, As you know English is not my first language so I apologize about any mistakes and I wanna explain that Arabic isn't an easy language at all even for it's native speakers, so translation won't be easy and won't deliver the meaning percisely but i'll try my best.
Like proverbs in all languages in the world, you don't take them literally, there's
Periphrasis, there are expressions that you can't translate literally but you can translate the meaning.Mr.SirD: your a zionist, you hate Islam, You think that Muhammad wasn't a messenger of God. that's why you even understood the verse i explained wrong (in the last comment) so, I can't discuss EVERY versu with you cuz you will be looking at evrey single one with your own pre-established opinion/beleif (which is : you are terrorists, obviously!)to explain this in the comments section is irritating as the page is very long but here we go :=========================================================SirD says :Bukhari:V4B52N220 "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been made victorious with terror.'"The meaning Mr.SirD is : in one battle, (can't remember the name of it, sorry) but Muslims where a few hundreds faced and seiged by thousands of unbeleivers, but the distribution of the Muslims army was in a special way that brought fear into the hearts of their enemy, they FEARED them and just escaped without a fight..... they were (TERRORIZED) and that's how Muslims won that day......without a fight! it here means : (fear casted in the hearts of the enemy)Im not a man of religion, Im not even religious, but I'm trying to deliver you the best I know from the Islamic sources==========================================SirD says :
Qur'an:8:12 "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."
Did he use terrorism? If not, why does he mention it?
=============================
First, this is not the verse 8:12 :
the verse 8:12 says : (and you can google it if you want) :
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips off them."
So, even this translation is not so exact, most translators used the word "terror" here, it's true , so as fright and fear... and the meaning is very clear, God spilt fear (terror) into the hearts of the disbeleivers........that's all, sir.
and to prove my point about the literal translation did u notice (smite all their finger tips/finger prints) ? Does any body smite fingers in war? of course not this was a very literal translation (u can't even translate a proverb literally , u have to translate the meaning) it means strike them with maximum force (the unbeleivers who fought you first),and not literally their finger tips!
Any other questions?
Mezo, how about giving me a link to a better translation than the one I used in this hub.
I hope my last reply made things more clear to you, sir.....most translations are alike, but the problem is that they are all only translation not Explanation to the meanings, (not anyone can devise/interpret meanings out of words) and that most translators are hindi or pakistani and not native Arabic speakers in the first place, i think these links have kinda better translation (literal translation) :
http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispTargam.asp?n
Thanks Mezo. I'll get back to you.
Mezo, this is from one of the sites you linked me to.
[9.11] But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have
What exactly is a poor tax?
Here is another one.
[9.5] Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
hi and sorry for the late response....
as i said , im not a man of religion, im no preast, im not a (Sheikh = man of religion) religion is a science that needs studying..not everyone even arabs can extract the meaning of quran or hadeeth unless he studied the arabic language, the science of words meanings and causes and contect of each verse...i can only transfer to u what the men of religion has taught us, not my personal opinion, and so you can't just extract the meaning of a verse from Quran (different religion than yours) that was translated to English and by picking one piece of a verse!
please if you want a valid source for islamic information you can email or ask the nearset islamic center/mosque in your city, not from the internet(alot of mixed info written by both muslims and non), not from a non-muslim and of courese your personal opinion and pre-established beliefs are not a valid source of info about islam (or about any science!) neither do mine..
you may answer :(I get my info from translated Quran online, that's my source)
I'll answer that again : you got it, but you got it wrong.....again extraction of meanings (explanation of verses) isn't your job or mine, only qualified people who studied this religion can reveal the menings, like poetry sometimes it needs explanation.. that's why they study (comparative religion) in colleges.
About the verse you asked about Mr. Sirdent
=========================
[9.11] But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.
=========================
Meaning :
If the disbelievers who fought you, repented(asked God for forgiveness) , and became Muslims, and performed the Islalic duties like worship (prayers) and poor-due (Zakah), they become your brothers in religion.
The poor-due....is money paid by rich muslims to the poor. It's obligatory in Islam that each rich Muslim pays zakah (poor-due) to the poor yearly. So paying it is considered a sign that they followed the teachings of islam indeed.
btw. it helps u more to read it as a hole :
[9.4] Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him)
[9.5] Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[9.6] And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
[9.7] How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship ? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty.
[9.8] How (can there be any treaty for the others) when, if they have the upper hand of you, they regard not pact nor honour in respect of you ? They satisfy you with their mouths the while their hearts refuse. And most of them are wrongdoers.
[9.9] They have purchased with the revelations of Allah a little gain, so they debar (men) from His way. Lo! evil is that which they are wont to do.
[9.10] And they observe toward a believer neither pact nor honour. These are they who are transgressors.
[9.11] But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.
................................................................................................
Sirdent says :And yet there are still terrorist organizations in Pakistan just as in India.
- Who said that these things happening in Afghanistan/pakistan/india are accepted in Islam? alot of things are done in the name of Islam but it has nothing to do with Islam.
SirDent: Since you are a Christian, how do you account for the lack of respect for your savior from Muslims?
- What? in Islam we beleive that all messengers are humans, and that God has no son. this contradicts the christian beleive but it doesn't mean lack of respect, you cannot be a muslim unless you beleive and respect ALL prophets peace be upon them, Moses,Jesus, Ishmail and Muhammad. We respect them all and lack of respect to them means infidelity.
[2.87] To Moses We gave the Book and after him We sent other Messengers. We gave (Prophet) jesus, the son of Mary, veritable signs, and supported him with the Spirit of Purity (Gabriel). Will you then become proud whenever any Messenger comes to you with that which does not suit your fancies, and you belied some (Prophet jesus) and killed others!
[2.136] Say: 'We believe in Allah and that which is sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the tribes; to Moses and jesus and the Prophets from their Lord. We do not differentiate between any of them, and to Him we are submissive (Muslims).'
[2.253] Of these Messengers, We have preferred some above others. To some Allah spoke; and some He raised in rank. We gave (Prophet) jesus, the son of Mary, clear signs and strengthened him with the Spirit of Purity (Gabriel). Had Allah willed, those who succeeded them would not have fought against one another after the clear verses came to them. But they differed among themselves; some believed, and others disbelieved. Yet had Allah willed, they would not have fought against one another. Allah does whatever He will.
(((This means some prophets are preferred and each was given different miracles, but they are all alike in humanness)))
[3.45] When the angels said: 'O Mary, Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word (Be) from Him, whose name is Messiah, jesus, the son of Mary. He shall be honored in this world and in the Everlasting Life - and he shall be among those who are close.
[3.59] Truly, the likeness of (Prophet) jesus with Allah, is as the likeness of Adam, He created him from dust then He said to him "Be" and he was.
[4.150] Those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers, and desire to divide between Allah and His Messengers (by believing in Him without them), and say, 'We believe in some (Prophets Moses and jesus), and disbelieve in some of them (such as Prophet Muhammad),' desiring to take between this (and that) a way (between belief and disbelief) -
[4.171] People of the Book, do not exaggerate your religion. Do not say about Allah except the truth. Indeed, the Messiah, jesus son of Mary, is only a Messenger (and Prophet) of Allah, and His Word (Be) which He gave to Mary, and a (created) spirit by Him. So believe in Allah and His Messengers and do not say: 'Trinity.' Refrain, it is better for you. Allah is only One God. Exaltations to Him that He should have son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth, it is sufficient that Allah is the Guardian.
* read my hub for further info:
islam is not the fastest growing religion.islam grew 1.86% last year while penticostals grew 8.1% check out my hub for more information
Christ.. why would anyone choose a pedophile with blood in his hands?
I rahter wonder what the real difference in, and I mean that with all respect. Religions to me are all the same thing. You must believe without knowing exactly why or even if they are real or not. I chose not to believe because I can't find to concrete, solid evidence to back up the ideas and claims of any religion. But that doesn't mean I haven't explored what each religion has to say.
I decided that the basic message was that a person had to believe without question that a set of ideas and claims were true, while that person often had nothing but anecdotal evidence to back up their claims. It was more about feelings and trust, but I questioned why one religion was any better than another. They all ask the same thing which is basically, follow these doctrines because they are right, and others are all wrong.
Using that logic, I guess you could say the any religion will be right for the people who follow it, to the exclusion of all others, or else they are all wrong.
I follow no religion for the simple reason that I can see no basic difference between them, even if there are different rules and expectations. Nice writing, though and I enjoyed reading your hub.
In one hub someone told me that the apostles would not have died teaching a fake story, so that makes what they say correct. I have known people who were physically injured and a few were killed because they believed things that were false. Look around the world today and tell me that the fanatics blowing themselves and other up are not dying for a lie. It is also true in combat we soldiers often died to save others, but that underneath it all we were fighting and dying for a lie.
i see mohammeds portrait holding the quran they say he doesn't reading or writing how can he has the book as they told me his califs or diciples are listing to him and writing as he takes him 24 yrs.
Regarding your interpretation of "Quran 24:58"....it clearly says that those girls have to SEEK PERMISSION at your times of undress, and can freely go about at other times, when YOU SHOULD BE PARTICULAR ABOUT UNDRESSING. Therefore, I would certainly prefer to differ from your interpretation here. It is logically incorrect, pls.
to the muslims: Why is it so hard to interpret the Qu'ran? Why would od make it hard for you if He loved you? why does it seem easier to understand the holy bible than the Qu'ran.? even in other different languages, it is still the same interpretation from engligh to arabic, from arabic to English. why is the Qu'ran so different?
First, as a Muslim, I don't need to choose between the two Prophets Jesus and Muhammad (Nor Adam, Noah, Moses ...etc). To be a believer in Islam, you need to believe in ALL God's prophets and that they were the messengers of God, without that you are not believer. But before you do that, you also need to believe in your one and only God, and to worship him directly without idols or middleman. We don't need to worship prophet Muhammad, nor any other prophet even though we believe they were his prophets. After all, they are nothing but human that have been chosen/blessed to carry God's message. So, why choose when I MUST accept them all :). Since people through history start forgetting their religion, or misinterpret it as they see fit, this make them astray from the true path. Therefore, every prophet has been succeeded by another one to reinforce God's religion. That prophet religion remain true until God send another prophet with another religion to reinforce it. So from the title I knew right away the answer... it is "both of them". However, I need to follow the most-recent/reinforced God's religion, which is Islam. I won't explain why, since this would require articles/books and not only a comment (anyone "truly" interested can go read from more reliable sources, and not from some random internet guy in a blog).
Second, translation for one verse out of context is not enough. Picking what you want and dropping the whole context just to achieve your goals doesn't mean what you quoted and interpreted is what was intended originally. For example, the contradictions you pointed is because you picked them out of their contexts. Also, you seemed to pick only the killings verses (under war conditions), but never wanted to show the verses promoting love and peace (under peace conditions). Christianity and Judaism have both verses (killings/peace), not only Islam. After all, Islam is from the same God, and is a continuation to those religions. For non-Arabic reader, the translation of the verse alone won't help. You need to know what is the context, and when it was revealed, who was intended by it, and why it was revealed. Only then you can understand it correctly. Also, some of the verses are vague to ease for people the interpretation of the verse through the change of times/conditions, while other are strict and clear. There are verses who are restricted to a time/condition/group, while others are for any time/condition/group.
Third, the portrait of Prophet Muhammad is surely made by a non-Muslim, since Muslims are not allowed to portrait any prophet (including Prophet Jesus). This is to prevent people from worshiping prophets/people images (not to mention that they are probably drawn incorrectly). Also, using the other drawing that was published to offend Muslims doesn't support your argument. So you are not doing Prophet Jesus, nor Prophet Mohammad any good by showing a most certainly incorrect drawings.
Finally, it is easy to focus on bad things only (in your own interpretation) in one religion, then switch to the other religion and focus on the good things only (in your own interpretation) concluding that the later is the correct choice. I can in a similar way find a somehow matching verses in Judaism/Christianity to the one in Islam and do the same. The bad things (in your view) you pointed are not bad, but you rather chose to view them that way by taking them out of context. I am sure you can find similar thing in your book, but you will still view them as being correct because you view them in their true context. So is the case with Islam. It appears to me that the article is not directed to Muslims who are thinking about Christianity but rather to another Christians wanting to feel secure (or insecure) about his religion in comparison to Islam. Part of me think that you are also being insecure, and resorted to such way in writing an article without investigating the other religion with a true heart. So what is the point if you cannot prove your argument to a Muslim, when you are comparing his religion to yours if you fail to understand his religion correctly making uninformed interpretation? probably a waste of time for you, me, and anyone of both sides.
May God guide us all to the true path.
Your explanation is biased. You need to explore more on religions. You are telling that jesus was a prophet but not mohammed. Both the twos are prophets from god. You find some bad things in islam. There is no bad things in islam. As a prophet jesus was also not bad. Almost everything in christianity is fine but only one thing is objectionable which is jesus is only son of god. god is the creator, he needs no child, no wife, no daughter.
Can I ask a few simple questions (this is to all faiths), was your teachings written down by man?
Does the fundamental teaching follow humanities moral compass?
Why then fight over the differences in name or conduct?
SweetiePie Level 6 Commenter 3 years ago
Very interesting hub. There are quite a few people in Iran who are converting to Christianity after having an extreme Islamic state forced upon them.
http://www.payvand.com/news/04/dec/1207.html
In Islamic many people are born Christian, but converting from Islam to Christianity does have its consequences.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/017
Thanks for the good hub SirDent.