What do Pagans Really Think About Jesus?
74Roman gods
The Romans had many different gods. It is said they had a pantheon of gods.
pantheon (plural pantheons)
- a temple dedicated to all the gods
- all the gods of a particular people or religion, considered as a group
- a category or classification denoting the most honored persons of a group
We can see by the definition of pantheon that it means they had many gods. This makes them pagan in their beliefs.
The Beginning of Hate
Thomas, called Didymus an one of the original twelve disciples, was thrust through with a spear by enraged pagan priests, for preaching the Gospel of Christ in Parthis and India.
Luke is said to have been hanged from an olive tree in Greece by idolatrous priests. He had traveled through many countries with Paul.
Simon surnamed Zelotes, was crucified in great Britain in the year 74 AD. He was also one of the original twelve disciples.
John, the beloved disciple, was boiled in oil but escaped without harm. Afterwards he was sent to Patmos in exile by Domitian. The Isle of Patmos is where John received the vision of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Earlier he had founded the churches in Asia (with the exception of the Church of Ephesus), which are mentioned in Revelation.
What do pagans really think of Jesus? We can certainly see what they thought of what He preached and what His disciples preached.
Pagans hated Christians with a Passion?
In the year 81 AD, pagans were so infatuated with Christians that they fabricated lies in order to cause harm to Christians. They told that if pestilence, famine and/or earthquakes afflicted any part of the Roman Empire that it was the fault of Christians. The persecutions caused many more to tell the tales for gain. so tell me now, what do pagans really think of Jesus?
In the year 97 AD, Timothy, the beloved young man whom the Apostle Paul discipled, was beaten with clubs and died from the injuries two days later. Those who beat him to death were pagans. They beat him because he reproved them for their idolatry.
Beginning in the Year 108 AD
Pliny the second was appalled and lamented over the slaughter of Christians who were put to death by the thousands on a daily basis. Their crime was; meeting on a certain day before daylight to pray together a prayer to Christ as God, but never to do wickedness, stealing, lying, committing adultery, or fraudulent behavior. After this they would separate then reassemble to partake of a common meal together.
Ignatius was the appointed Bishop of Antioch, following in Peter's footsteps. It was said that s he went through cities going to Rome, that he exhorted the churches along the way and preached the Word of God. He also wrote a letter to the Church in Rome exhorting them not to use means for his deliverance. He is quoted as saying, "Now I begin to be a disciple. I care for nothing, of visible or invisible things, so that I may but win Christ. Let fire and the cross, let the companies of wild beasts, let breaking of bones and tearing of limbs, let the grinding of the whole body, and all the malice of the devil, come upon me; be it so, only may I win Christ Jesus!" After being sentenced he also said, "I am the wheat of Christ: I am going to be ground with the teeth of wild beasts, that I may be found pure bread."
Eustachius was ordered by the Roman Emperor to join in an idolatrous celebration and refused. He was slaughtered along with his family because of the rage of the Emperor.
Faustines and Jovita, brothers and citizens of Brescia, suffered so much torment that Calocerius a pagan admires their patience. He exclaimed. "Great is the God of the Christians!" He was then apprehended and suffered the same fate.
Methods Used
The above are just a few examples of how the Christians were persecuted. There are literally hundreds of thousand of others who are not named. Their crime is simply telling the truth to pagans and anyone else who would come their way. The methods used to kill Christians are not for the faint of heart but the story must be told by all means.
Many were tied to stakes and burned. A fire would be built around them and the pagans would watch them literally burn laughing and mocking them. Others were simply beaten to death with clubs and/or sticks. All the time mocking and laughing were those who hated the Christians.
Some had animal skins put upon them and wild animal turned loose to tear them to pieces. A most horrible way to die. Still others were crucified on a cross, just as Jesus was.
Through all the persecutions, murders, slaughters, Christians grew in number. Nothing can stop the Word of God from spreading out to the corners of the earth.
Pagans Today
Pagans today seem to say they love Jesus but have problems with His followers. If they truly love Jesus, as they say, they would also love His followers. What I see is that they don't like being told the truth. They would rather live in their idolatry and sins than be saved by the only One who can save them. The very reason I wrote this is because of another hub. The hub was written very well, but the comments urged me to write.
The hub is Why do Christians get such a bad wrap?? (no longer published). Many of the comments on that hub started talking about the crusades. They they go to more modern times. Not one said anything about before the crusades, except the first one I made.To this date and time not a single person addressed the beginning of persecutions as I have here in this hub.
People don't want to know that hell is a very real place. They would rather be ignorant willfully, than to be shown there is a better way. They want to fulfill the lusts of their flesh.
He Waits for You
The Way
Jesus made a statement before he was crucified. He said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me." No man at all can come to the Father but by Jesus Christ. Abraham came to the Father by the Way of Jesus Christ. There is not a single person alive or whoever lived that Jesus did not die for. The sins of the whole world was on His back. This is the message we preach. Repent of your sins and be saved by ther bkood of Jesus Christ.
There is no other way to be saved from the pits of hell. Why not accept His sacrifice today. Those who refuse the sacrifice of Jesus are actually saying that they have a better way. They are saying that God's way is not good enough for them.
I know many will be angry over this article. Some will probably feel sorry for me thinking I am delusional. I assure you all, I am not delusional.
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I don't really see your point CJ, but I appreciate your input here. If I may ask, what is considered pagan?
Praise Our Lord Sirdent,
Keep publishing truth. I feel that most American Christians are wimps compared to our predecessors. We have the Power of the Holy Spirit but we do not tap into it.
We whine, complain, sidestep and just plain do not speak out for Jesus Christ.
We interpret the Great Commission as the Grate Remission.
The pew sittin Christians are fullfilling the negative role of at least 4 of the 7 churches who were spoken to in Revelation and Sardis would be one of them.
The problem Sirdent is that the pew sitting Christians will probably not read this comment or your story and even if they did I wonder if they would look up the n-formation in the Book of Revelation. Without a big screen in front of them they may not know where the Book of Revelation is.
Ok , I have posted my Satirical Judgement of the Day. God Bless all of you and Jesus loves you anyway. But please ask God to give you the courage to speak up.
He will and when He does please use it.
May God's peace remain on your house.
I agree with much of what you said here. I applaud your courage to write about our faith because God has given us the word share. God bless you for writing this and having the courage to share with others.
Thanks so much for the encouragement pastorreachout and Sweetiepie. I appreciate your input here very much. :)
Great hub! People are scared of what they can't see, but can't see because they want open thier eyes.
SirDent - I thought most current opinion did not identify John "whom Jesus loved" with the John of Revelations?
Please don't take this the wrong way, but if I want to know what an Italian thinks, I'll ask an Italian, not a Greek. Similarly, I'd expect a Catholic to be more authoritative than a Protestant on the subject of Catholicism. I wouldn't ask a Muslim to describe Christian thought, or vice versa. So I don't think you are really in a position to represent the Pagan view.
I prefer not to label myself, but if I had to, I'd probably choose Rationalist. If you are interested in what that means please read my hub http://hubpages.com/hub/Freedom-from-Belief before writing your own on the evils of Rationalism ;) (Or remove the link if you don't want it here). Thanks.
I thinks sirdent is only describing what non-Christians think about Christians from what we hear and see. I do not pretend to define what a non-Christian believes, so maybe take out the word pagan and call it non-Christian. However, I encourage sirdent to continue with his writing from his point of view because we need to see the wide spectrum of thoughts in this world. Also, as a Christian I will tell you some non-Christians who claim to be open minded are very judemental towards Christians. One of my former friends used to go to church growing up, but when she became an atheist she made a point to everyone she met about how she did not want anyone to think she was a Christian and how horrible being Christian is. I never once discussed my beliefs with her or anything, but she was constantly attacking me. There are always two sides to every story and just as sirdent does not know about certain religions first hand, non-Christians cannot pretend to know what it feels like to be judged on their faith. No one can know all things at all times. Also, if someone is not a Christian why the deep concern over sirdent's writings? Are people trying to control him because this is the impression I am getting. Sirdent is my friend, he talks to me, he emails me. We are good friends and he is such a kind person :). Sirdent once pointed out that Christians treat each other as family and I consider him to be like a somewhat older brother.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
Please let’s not pretend that the christians are holy and heathens are evil. It’s too easy to just divide the world into black and white. And yes, I have found a better way than to simply believe some interpretation of one single book. For me, that IS a better way. I don’t question or critisize your way, I don’t feel sorry for you, I don’t think you’re delusional. I just disagree.
I will tell you I think all humans can be evil or good at the same time. Actually part of Christian belief is admitting we are far from perfect and Jesus died for our sins.
SweetiePie - you might have noticed I commended SirD's "Where is Hell" hub as a clear statement of his own belief in which he resisted the temptation to demonise others. I don't agree with it of course, but that's fine. But I think there is a big difference between advocating your own belief system in isolation and advocating it by denigrating others. That's all.
I think so too, SweetiePie. And I also think this hub is very one-sided in that it focuses on all the mischief that christians have suffered from, but does not pay any attention to the mischief conducted by christians.
Paraglider-
That is fine if you want to engage with him and he with you. Honestly I will tell you why I will never write another hub about religion here at HubPages, the debating responses I received. I think you and he enjoy these discussions, whereas I just prefer to draw into myself and not have debates. I worry about people I care about when I see a debate starting and want it to end, but he enjoys these I guess to continue writing on debating topics. I have encouraged sirdent not to even write about other religions and just focus on Christianity, but if he wants to that is his choice. Honestly these debates are draining, but I hope the two of you enjoy these.
SweetiePie - in the past few weeks I've published a few hubs about politics, philosophy, psychology, and (indirectly) religion. The quality of commentary I've received has been excellent, largely because the original hub has advocated a position, not attacked another position. When you start a war, you create an enemy. Look at how the 'war on terror' has created terrorists. When you start a discussion, you create friends.
Well you have just atttacked me paraglider. Not one of my hubs about religion ever attacked anyone, so I think you do owe me an apology. Please do not speak down to me, I am an educated individual who is respectful of all. However, I will never engage with you again because I am finding you less than respectful towards me at this moment.
I've no idea why you think I attacked you. I said that attacking creates enemies while discussing creates friends. I'm sorry you feel attacked, but I honestly have no idea why you do.
Because you outlined how your hubs start a conversation and create friendships, but others start a war and make enemies. Whose hubs are you referring to exactly? Well, I blow out here and will stop commenting.
Hi SirDent, my point is that the word pagan refers to the practices and worship of country folk as opposed to those of city people, non-official religion as opposed to official religion. When the official religion of Rome were the cults of Jove and Diana etc, the country people were mostly followers of Pan. It was a fertility cult. Later, when Christianity was adopted by the people, the official Roman cults would have referred to that as "pagan". Later again, when Christianity became the official Roman state cult, all other cults were described as pagan. Christianity currently has all the appearance of the official state cult of the United States, it's radical egalitarian pacifist message once again being distorted beyond all recognition. Does that make sense?
Amen CJ.
I guess my point is this. I don't usually allow myself to get labelled, but on this occasion I think it would be appropriate to declare myself a pagan. I think you are wrong to characterise pagans by what the official propagandists of the Roman state did to Christians. States have always murdered their enemies, and in the early years Christianity was definitely an enemy of the Roman state. Not many years before it was the followers of Spartacus who were similarly reviled and murdered. My personal definition of paganism is this: paganism is to religion what anarchism is to politics, meaning we choose our own way of birth, marriage and death, with no need to refer to any authority.
Hello Pam. Amen to you.
I am so weary of the persecution-complex that so many American Christian fundamentalists are adopting these days. Listen, no one is persecuting you. Yes, lots of perfectly nice people are sick to death of self-righteous Christian nonsense, but you still get to come here and spout your ideas and misinformation as freely as anyone else, and the worst thing that ever happens is that a sane person or two drops by and says, oh good grief get a clue. That's hardly persecution.
When I see some of pagans here at Hubpages throwing you into a lion pit I'll feel sorry for you. Maybe. Until then, I think you're a bit of a bully and the whole persecution thing is what psychologists call 'projection.'
Look it up.
Well explained CJ, I have always considered myself a Pagan in the "countryside" sense of the word, in other words a love of nature and the environment and a belief in a supreme power, or God. The ancient religion of Paganism goes back way before Christ and is where many monuments such as standing stones were created.
I wasn't sure when I read this Hub why Pagans were suddenly being described as if they worshipped multiple Gods or that they would have ever wanted to kill or hurt Christians. My understanding of Paganism as the path I follow is to love and respect all fellow creatures and man and not see ourselves as superior or better than the other species on this earth, simply different, yet all created by the same God or Great Spirit.
I am now guessing that much of the bad feeling and debates caused between Christians and Pagans on various hubs or forums has come from the misguided belief by Christians that the Pagan religion all stems back to such people as the Romans, and therefore the Pagans were responsible for mass murder and cruelty against Christians. Clearly there was as you have described, a vast difference between the country folk Paganism and the City People's version, the latter of which involved the persecution of the Christians.
Interesting discussion here. pgrundy sounds like a bully to me.
CJ - {{with no need to refer to any authority}} That's exactly where I stand as a rationalist. The best rational philosophers have liberated the individual from belief systems _without_ imposing a new system on top. We are expected to think, of course, but hey, it doesn't hurt when you get used to it.
PG - Many also seem to need to define themselves not by what they are but by what they are not, hence the unedifying spectacle of lashing out at all other religions and even different Christian denominations. It is wearying, as you say.
Nancy, I am a bully. Everyone knows this about me. Hub Pages is littered with the bruised, bleeding bodies of my victims... bwwwhahahahaha!!!
Hi Paraglider. Yes, and I should put down my gasoline can I suppose but I can't resist somehow throwing some more on the fire. My dark side in action I guess.
Yes, Hindus are polytheists, but you'd have a hard time persuading them they were pagans. Pagans take their lead from nature and the world around them, as mistyhorizon says. It's pantheistic not polytheistic, meaning it recognises all creation as divine. It comes from the divine union of a god and a goddess since, when we look at the world, that is how creation is made: from the quickening of the earth into growth by the warmth and power of the sun, and by the love that a man and a woman share. Personally I celebrate the radical power of Christianity with its call to social justice and it's identification with the poor and the oppressed. I wonder how many Christians would characterise their religion this way, however? Not George Bush for sure.
I'd make a comment about pgrundy only I'm scared of her.
CJ, that's my pagan mojo workin'!
Seems that this hub and its comments are some kind of skirmishes between Christian believers and non-believers. I suppose that it’s all academic because no one has much of a chance to change any beliefs. And I guess that I just don’t fit in because my beliefs, such as they are, are not based upon the popular myths of the season. I guess that I remain a heathen, as neither the Christian stories nor any pagan stories make much sense. But, surprisingly, evidently these myths are strong enough to permanently affect people whom one would think might have better grips on reality.
bud...i doubt you are any more a heathen than the rest of us LOL...BUT.....its just something to think on that rational thinking intelligent people believe in Jesus Christ. They base their life and death on Him. I do (not that I'm all that intelligent...:o)......Just something to think on.....
...er...I think the term was just an unwitting malapropism :)
Here's the thing: Most 'fire and brimstone' Christians never stop referring to that John 14:6 verse. If the 'I' were substituted with Love - which God is, what a different take there would be on things! That's the way I like to see it rather than as a Damocles sword hanging over every breath I take!!
Way to many comments to address one by one here.
Paraglider, this is mostly from history actually beginning from before 100 AD. Pagans haven't changed in their ways or thinking to my knowledge, even today. One woman emailed me telling me I was too nice to pagans on this hub. It is how a person takes what they read I suppose.
Sweetie, Paraglider didn't say anything offensive to you. I am almost positive he was actually talking about one of my other hubs.
Ananta, God said Himself that without holiness no man will see God. Only they righteous will make it into heaven. Only one way to be righteous and that is through Jesus Christ. As far as dividing the world into black and white, that's what it is actually. It's the shades of gray that so many see that cause them to be blind.
CJ, unless I am mistaken, you are saying that where you live defines whether you are pagan or not? Correct me if I am wrong, but if not let me know also.
PGrundy, even though I am not persecuted personally, doesn't mean others aren't. They are cast into prison, shot, beaten, hanged, and raped in many other countries only because they are Christians.
I am not asking anyone to feel sorry for me. I don't want anyone to feel sorry for those who are truly persecuted. I merely want the truth to be known. This hub was written due to comments on another hub. I mentioned the persecutions before the crusades for all to see but not one single person addressed it.
Everyone wants to make it known how evil Christianity has been and is, bot no one wants to know how evil many others are.
Nancy, I'm not sure if PGrundy is a bully or not, but don't stand by the highway where she can see you with a carton of eggs in your hand.
SirDent - Listen to CJ. He is explaining the difference between Pagan (or natural) religion which tends to be local, and official Roman state sanctioned pantheism.
All religions, where they find themselves in a minority alonside a majority religion, suffer persecution. Unfortunately it is in the nature of religion to be intolerant. The intolerance springs from suppressed guilt at mortifying the intellect and espousing as fact the unjustifiable. I read your hubs, and respect your right to your faith, but not your predeliction to pick on other faiths, or non-faiths. Why do that?
I wonder if you returned the compliment and followed the link I offered you?
Phew! There are so many points to cover, but for starters I'll go to the top of the page and randomly cover remarks made in the introduction.
Firstly the rather condescending remark that Christians 'tell the truth' the obvious inference being that non Christians don't! May I please modify that to Christians tell the truth as ''they' PERCEIVE it. We ALL have our 'own' truth. Good Pagans, Buddhists, Hindus, Moslems have standards and personal integrity too you know.
Somebody has now become hung -up on the fact that Christians were persecuted by Pagans, ok so maybe understandably the Christians are starting to feel that they have their backs to the wall , but as has already been pointed out, the Romans certainly did NOT typify pagan belief per se. The Roman empire was probably the cruellest ever regime and CJ stone has clarified excellently the difference between Paganism and Heathenism. Indeed the main reason I myself have used the term 'pagan' in my earlier post is because I was trying very hard to speak to Christians in the 'language' 'they' use without splitting hairs over definition.
As for the for the quote 'I am the way ..... no man enters the kingdom of heaven but through me' etc etc, well I was wondering how long it would take before that one came up!' Please bear with me.
Jesus was born into a hypocritical and flawed religious society which needed to change. He was trying to get the scribes and the pharisees (who held all religious power) to clean up their act and was reminding them of their spiritual duties according to their own holy book. Speaking out like this was unique at the time and therefore considered radical and subversive. So of course he was absolutely right to say that only way to heaven was through him, simply because he was addressing his countrymen at the time- not the world in general. If 'he' didn't lead the way then who else was there around to do it? No one! Would Jesus really expect someone in outer Mongolia to go to hell just because the poor sod was unlikely to ever be exposed to his teachings? Come on!
Jesus also said 'By their fruits shall ye know them' and to me this is a clear indication that labels are unimportant to Christ simply because actions speak louder than words and its people's deeds which will ultimately commend them in the eyes of God. After all, if Jesus really had had- it- in for non Jews and non- Christians he would hardly have used the parable of the 'Good Samaritan' would he? He used that story precisely because Samaritans were considered ungodly outcasts who didn't fit into one camp or the other.
Now for a slightly different slant. If you believe in the validity of the appearances of the Virgin Mary currently taking place in the former Yugoslavia- and personally (as a 'pagan' too-), I do, then you cannot ignore the fact that she quite shocked the local Christian community there by revealing during one of her visitations that a local Moslem women was approaching Sainthood on account of her good deeds and Godliness. If a 'Heathen' is good enough for the Virgin Mary then surely she should be good enough for us!
I find it interesting that certain Christians in this debate are emphasizing the persecution of their kind by the ancient Romans. Helloooo! Our American friends are obviously unaware of the horrors imposed by the Spanish Inquisition and Oliver Cromwells Puritanson anyone who even remotely fitted their definition of a 'witch'. Owning a cat was usually enough to get a single woman burned at the stake. And while we're at it how about the events in Salem? Something about glass houses and stones springs to mind here.
By the way, did I miss something? How exactly is Paraglider supposed to have attacked Sweetiepie? He seems a pretty decent unaggressive guy to me.
'I guess that I remain a heathen, as neither the Christian stories nor any pagan stories make much sense. But, surprisingly, evidently these myths are strong enough to permanently affect people whom one would think might have better grips on reality' I copied and pasted those remarks by Budwood, b/c he expressed exactly how I FEEL
Budwood, if you are a heathen, then to all intents and purposes you are a Pagan, but of the "Countryside Variety", much like I am, so no harm there. Good Luck!! Blessed Be!
I am always surprised to read everyone's religious views on this site! I noticed this in the article above:
"The methods used to kill Christians are not for the faint of heart but the story must be told by all means.
Many were tied to stakes and burned. A fire would be built around them and the pagans would watch them literally burn laughing and mocking them. Others were simply beaten to death with clubs and/or sticks. All the time mocking and laughing were those who hated the Christians." - Pagans (witches, sages etc) were also murdered by these methods and many other more torturous by "Christians".
I also find it humorous that "christianity" has arranged for many of it's holidays (holy days) to coincide with "pagan" rituals/celebrations etc. I do not mean to disrespect anyone's beliefs, I am just saying my opinion :) I do not understand any one religions need to constantly rehash their "trials & tribulations" at the hands of other peoples. Every group/religion has experienced hard times because of the people opposing them. Let's move forward!
Agreed, good points all round Ms Sooz!
Paraglider says:7 hours ago
SirDent - Listen to CJ. He is explaining the difference between Pagan (or natural) religion which tends to be local, and official Roman state sanctioned pantheism.
All religions, where they find themselves in a minority alonside a majority religion, suffer persecution. Unfortunately it is in the nature of religion to be intolerant. The intolerance springs from suppressed guilt at mortifying the intellect and espousing as fact the unjustifiable. I read your hubs, and respect your right to your faith, but not your predeliction to pick on other faiths, or non-faiths. Why do that?
I wonder if you returned the compliment and followed the link I offered you?
SirDent: I am trying to Paraglider. There's a lot to take in at one time here. One thing I will say, not one comment has denied the persecution of Christians. It wasn't just the Roman Empire either. Rewards were offered for turning Christians in to authorities.
One other thing also. Has anyone who commented actually read about why this hub was written in the first place?
I read your hub before Paraglider. I don't agree with what you say, but felt there was no need for me to comment on it. I will address the other comments as I have time.
One more thing real quickly. I appreciate the civil-ness of the comments here very much.
SirDent: I am trying to Paraglider. There's a lot to take in at one time here. One thing I will say, not one comment has denied the persecution of Christians. It wasn't just the Roman Empire either. Rewards were offered for turning Christians in to authorities.
Para - No-one's going to deny historical fact. There are no holocaust deniers here, I hope. But ancient persecutions should be laid to rest. 2000 years down the line it is a bit silly to point the finger and say - he started it! As I said above, all religions, when they find themselves in a minority, have been persecuted. It is the nature of religion, sadly, to be intolerant. Where people are being persecuted today, e.g. Muslims in Paris suburbs, Christians in (parts of) India, it is a local problem that should be dealt with locally, without reference to ancient grudges.
SirD - One other thing also. Has anyone who commented actually read about why this hub was written in the first place?
Para - Yes. I came here via the link you placed in your comment on the 'trigger' hub. But a hub page stands alone (that's even stated in the guidelines). No-one is obliged to deconstruct a hub's motivation.
I thank god that I’m not blind, Sir Dent. Not even colorblind. I don’t only see the shades of gray, but also all the other colors of the rainbow. I truly hope you will be happy in your black and white world.
Paraglider said: "As I said above, all religions, when they find themselves in a minority, have been persecuted. It is the nature of religion, sadly, to be intolerant."
And yes, that just about sums it up! Religions and cults put forward the idea that the path they reveal is the truth so everyone else by not being on that path is wrong! Religions and cults all seek, and order in many cases, believers to go and convert others, which means to impose a belief system on other people who may not want it and were doing fine beforehand. By these actions religions and cults all create division, which is then used by the rulers of the world as a great tool against the masses - divide and conquer. In other words, a load of people fighting and arguing amongst themselves are hardly likely to unite in purpose against an oppressor or common enemy, not only that but a large proportion can be convinced that it is right to fight in some crazy war because they are the right people and their opponents are wrong. Both sides have God on their side but a different version of God!
Both sides should see that this is a load of nonsense. We are people and they are people and that's all there is to it! People are people not labels and pagan and Christian are labels. If people want to wear and identify with such labels well that's fine, and that's their own business, but it isn't when they start saying my label is better than your label!
BTW I have been labelled as a pagan because I joined the Loyal Arthurian Warband druid order many years ago, run in title by King Arthur Pendragon who calls himself a "pagan priest." He aims to be uniting the pagans and the Christians, which is a very admirable cause but a very very difficult one as this hub shows!
Bard - we're in full agreement. Labelling is a shorthand, sometimes useful, but easily abused. When I have to call myself something, I'll choose rationalist. Mainly because if you say athiest people want to revile you and if you say agnostic they want to convert you (after all you can only be an agnostic because you haven't yet heard their truth!)
But you can't fool me - you've been labelled a Pagan because of the colour of your beard!
Well, since we’re all labeling ourselves here (which is far better than other labeling us) I might as well join in :)
I’d attach the label of “naïve innocence” to myself in that case. Simple fact is that I don’t know, don’t understand and don’t pursue to know “The Truth”. Much like a child I try to take things as they come, just wondering without drawing conclusions. Drawing pictures is much more fun anyway. Blessed be, may God be with you, insallah and shalom :)
There is so much religious debate on this site, yet so little ground is ever won or lost. From a British perspective, and this is only my own observation based on our experience with Northern Ireland, surely increased secularisation can only be a good thing? Once no one cares too much about converting other people, then religion ceases to be worth fighting over. I wonder if religion is no more than an accident of birth. A deeply religious Christian, might as easily have been a deeply religious Muslim, if they were born into a different society.
I know many may wonder where I stand on other things that went on such as the Crusades. I wrote a hub about the Crusades, which in fact only about the first one. I pulled no punches when I wrote it either. Those who want to check out can click the link below.
http://hubpages.com/hub/TheCrusades
I am not a Catholic, and do not believe that the virgin Mary appeared to anyone in Yugoslavia. I in fact have my own opinions about Catholicism, but I will keep it to myself at this time.
The fact of the whole matter is that there was one death that was done for the good of all men. One redeemer who can bring us out of our state of sin. That one redeemer is Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or says, Jesus died for you. He did it because He loves you, not because He hates you.
You can search history. Find out when pagans were killed and burned by Christians. I still have seen nothing that says pagans have changed. Maybe I am missing something that was stated. As I said before, there is take in here.
OFF TOPIC- Has anyone else been experincing problems with posting comments? It seems space to type comemnts isn't fully loading. It stays gray and I have to refresh the page a few times.
“Some Christian fundamentalists in the United States react to Neopaganism, and Wicca in particular, with rhetorics reminiscent of the European witch-hunts. In August 1999, Jack Harvey, pastor of Tabernacle Independent Baptist Church in Killeen, Texas allegedly arranged for at least one member of his church to carry a handgun during religious services, "in case a warlock tries to grab one of our kids...I've heard they drink blood, eat babies. They have fires, they probably cook them..." During speeches which preceded his church's demonstration against Wiccans, Rev. Harvey allegedly stated that the U.S. Army should napalm Witches. One of the protesters carried a sign which read "Witchcraft is an abomination" on one side and "Burn the witches off Ft. Hood" on the other. A Wiccan faith group is active at Ft. Hood, a large army base near Killeen. In 2008 Jim Piculas, a substitute teacher at Charles S. Rushe Middle School in Florida, was reported to have lost his job for "wizardry." Piculas performed a sleight of hand trick in front of students, making a toothpick seem to disappear using concealed adhesive tape. In a phone conversation with Piculas, an administrator is claimed to have told Piculas that he had been "accused of wizardry." School officials later informed reporters that wizardry was "just one of the reasons Piculas was let go."
Source: Wikipedia
I have no doubt whatsoever the among Pagans there have been plenty of wrongdoers, just as there are wrongdoers among Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, atheists, etc.
SirDent says:
It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or says…
I rest my case.
Sir D - "It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or says"
Who can be right? Man or God?
Since you are just a man, you could well be wrong, Sir Dent
Whether I am wrong or not means nothing. God is the one who is always right. You labeled yourself as "naive innocence." Have you ever in your life told a lie? If so, you are far from innocent. By the same token, I am far from innocent also.
Many make claims that their god is the right one or that all are the same. If all are the same then there are no gods at all because their voices and words are completely different. There is absolutely no structure.
One man wrote that he and God are tight, but at the same time called God he/she/it. Makes no sense to me at all. If he was as tight with God as he claimed, then he would know what God is actually called.
And who might you be to decide whether or not I am innocent or to what degree?
All have come short of the glory of God. All means everyone in the world.
Antana...you quote one kooky preacher from Texas. Of course that isnt the norm. (Carrying guns is Texas is norm, but the rest aint...:o) And..you are quoting from Wikipedia. Not exactly Scripture. There are kooks in every bunch of folks of all faiths and beliefs. As a Christian I believe if you honestly seek God, asking Him to reveal Himself as He IS, not as you wish Him to be...you will find Him....for the desire to find Him is His doing....
Wow! I can't believe that there are so many of you that were actually so old that you were there. I mean why else would you feel such a need to come here and get so fired up about it.
Its to bad Jesus didn't tell us this was going to happen. WAIT! NO NO I"m pretty sure he did!
I'm also glad to see that we can change the definition of the word pagan whenever we feel like making a point. I guess someone should of told Webster before he went to all the trouble of writing that book.
Sirdent, the more this happens the more you know your doing something right. Thanks!
knslms, even though I love comments on my hubs, I would like to keep everything as civil as possible. Your comment is borderline and may step over the edge a little but I will let it stay. Let's just try to be a little nicer next time.
Sir D - Please post a sample of God's Word that is not second hand through some mere human, together with a description of how you came to obtain it. Thanks - Paraglider
Knslms, I was going to drop out of this somewhat pointless and spiralling out of control debate as it is a no win situation as no person of one belief should try to convert another or tell them they are wrong because if an individual is happy with their beliefs they will not simply change religions because they are told that they should and they are wrong. However, I have to quote back to you your own words "Wow! I can't believe that there are so many of you that were actually so old that you were there. I mean why else would you feel such a need to come here and get so fired up about it".
Are you willing to consider that the same quote may apply to you?
Also, the definition of the word Pagan to quote the website www.religioustolerance.org/paganism.htm states:
Who is a "Pagan?"Everybody has their favorite definition of the word "Pagan." Most people are convinced that their meaning is the correct one. But no consensus exists, even within a single faith tradition or religion as to the "correct" definition of "Pagan." The same problem happens with the definition of "Christianity," and probably with many other religions.
Or, to quote http://www.spiralnature.com/spirituality/paganism/
"Depending on your background, the word 'pagan' can mean a variety of things. It may mean one who is not Christian, Muslim or Jewish, or one who has no religion. It could simply mean one who isn't Christian, or conjure fantastic hedonistic images of orgiastic rites. These definitions have had their place n the past, but definitions have a way of changing with time depending on usage and culture.
Our modern word 'pagan' comes from the Latin paganus, meaning 'country-dweller'. Similarly, the word 'heathen', which has come to mean one who does not acknowledge the Christian, Muslim, or Jewish god, literally means 'heath-dweller'. Both these words refer to someone from the country or rural district, as opposed to more urban folk.
The initial spread of Christianity took place in major urban areas, leaving the countryside continuing to practice folk magick and adhere to the local customs. It wasn't long before the word became synonymous with the idea of rustic folk tradition and those who were not followers of the Christian god, thus giving rise to many of the more modern meanings we understand today.
More recently, however, the definition of Paganism has evolved yet again to become a general term for the followers of magickal, shamanistic, and polytheistic religions which hold a reverence for nature as a central characteristic of their belief system. It's also given rise to the term neo-pagan (literally 'new pagan'), which refers to a follower or sympathizer of one of the newly formed pagan religions now spreading throughout the world. It is with this latter modern definition that this section will be predominantly concerned"
No-one here is changing the "definition of the word Pagan", as there are so many variations on this. It is simply that the vast majority of today's Pagans are of the "countryside" variety, and not of the Roman Christian bashing variety. we simply want to enjoy what we believe and are confident and comfortable in, at the same time as loving nature and the environment and respecting the planet, surely any God or Jesus would approve of that! If Jesus truly felt that animals were less important than humans and taught us they had no place in heaven, and that the love and respect Pagans have for the planet his "Father" created was wrong, then Christianity would be a religion no-one would want a part of, and I would have thought this would be a natural reaction by most free-thinking, individuals who live by their conscience.
According to Webster's 1848 dictionary.
PaganPA'GAN, n. [L. paganus, a peasant or countryman, from pagus, a village.] A heathen; a Gentile; an idolater; one who worships false gods. This word was originally applied to the inhabitants of the country, who on the first propagation of the christian religion adhered to the worship of false gods, or refused to receive christianity, after it had been received by the inhabitants of the cities. In like manner, heather signifies an inhabitant of the heath or woods, and caffer, in Arabic, signifies the inhabitant of a hut or cottage, and one that does not receive the religion of Mohammed. Pagan is used to distinguish one from a Christian and a Mohammedan.
PA'GAN, a. Heathen; heathenish; Gentile; noting a person who worships false gods.1. Pertaining to the worship of false gods.
Jilly50, actually I agree with most of what you say, as I believe that God does show himself in many many ways, and in many cases that may be through nature, through Psychic experiences etc. I am totally confident that there is a God, I am not scared to die or about what comes after, (and I do believe there is "an after"). You don't need to be a Christian to ask for, or to receive, proof of "something more". Please believe me when I say that as someone who has lost a Husband to Bowel Cancer 2 weeks after he was diagnosed, and someone who has lost numerous other much loved relatives and pets over the years, I have had more than enough proof given to me that there is something after this life that is better. This does not make me a Christian, but it does make me a believer in an afterlife for all species, but I have experienced proof of this that convinced me far more than simply being "told" it was true based on a book.
SirDent, I am sure you are actually a lovely kind and giving person, but I am not sure what you hope to achieve by quoting an 1848 dictionary when things have changed so much since then, including definitions as were defined in my earlier post! How can "Webster" say that a person who believed in a God, or Gods, before Christianity came along, worships "False Gods", how convenient, if only a person of another religion had written this same Dictionary what a different slant could have been put on it!!! Perhaps at the time the Pagan perspective was that the Christian faith was a "false God", but they weren't writing the dictionary of course!
LOL Misty. I merely put that to show what the word Pagan actually means. I wish I had checked it earlier.Too late for that now, but I will say that CJ's explanation makes more sense to me now.
A question. When did the definition change and why?
Thank you SirDent for being civil.Yes, I agree CJ's explantion makes a lot of sense, but as for your other question that is a hard one to answer as I was not around when any definitions were "changed", and in fact I suspect they actually "evolved". The definition of "Pagan" you have quoted is only "what it means" according to one dictionary from 1848. If you buy a dictionary today you would find many new words, and "evolved definitions" of many older words within it. By the sound of things "Webster" was a defininte Christian (no offence), and was therefore bound to feel obliged to put a negative slant on Paganism. I think the definition didn't actually change, but that people confused the Roman type "Christian hating Pagans", with the countryside "Nature loving Pagans", and tarred them all with the same brush.
I will say that the persecutions I got from John Fox's book of martyrs. I read it over and used the ones closest to the time that Jesus died. Fox called them pagans. That is why I called them pagans.
It really makes no difference what name they are called by. They were still guilty. If you think I only did this to make everyone else look bad, you should check out my hub http://hubpages.com/hub/TheCrusades
You will see that I pull no punches. As far as the definition goes, many words have changed definitions over the years. I don't know when the word pagan changed definitions either.
Agreed, you can call them anything you like, but that does not make countryside/nature loving Paganism the same Pagans responsible for any persecution of martyrs, nor does it make their religious beliefs wrong!
Thank you for admitting the source of the "Pagan" reference though!
By the way, I don't necessarily think the word "Pagan" did "change defintion", as I said before, I believe it evolved, (see my earlier post)
apologize for being a little rude last night. Misty I don't disagree with what sirdent has to say otherwise I wouldn't bother to read. We both found this through the other article and we know were sirdent stands, so its not like we didn't know what we were getting into. My point being that everyone is so quick to jump down a christians throat, just for thier beliefs and then turn the whole thing around saying "you are pushing your beliefs on me" It doesn't bother me becuause I know that its going to happen and as long as it does I know that myself or someone else is doing something right. I am just trying to make that point.
Mistyhorizon: why would it be much different than with any other life philosophy? Who is a Christian? The Catholic, the Protestant, the Baptist? They all call themselves Christians, so who is right? Who is a Muslim? The Sunni, the Shi’a, the Sufi? Who is a Buddhist? The Zen Buddhist, the Theravada Buddhist, the Mahayana Buddhist? And finally: who is right? And who’s to tell who is right?
mistyhorizon2003 says:10 hours ago
By the way, I don't necessarily think the word "Pagan" did "change defintion", as I said before, I believe it evolved, (see my earlier post)
SirDent: When something "evolves" it changes does it not?
The comments will read tha most recent one first now. Some are hidden now but can be read by clicking the show more comments link.
Ananta65 says:21 hours ago
Since you are just a man, you could well be wrong, Sir Dent
SirDent: Yes I could very well be wrong. Man has been wrong about a lot of things. One thing for certain is that God is never wrong. Many who claim to hear from God telling them to do mean and evil things are liars. Many believe all beliefs to be right, but yet condemn and demonize Christians.
Why do they do that? Simply because we tell them that their way is wrong and God's way is right.
Paraglider says:16 hours ago
Sir D - Please post a sample of God's Word that is not second hand through some mere human, together with a description of how you came to obtain it. Thanks - Paraglider
SirDent: I canot answer this to your satisfaction because whatever I say will come through me.
Sir Dent, I agree that when something "evolves" it changes, what I was trying to say in answer to your original question to me was that there was no exact point in time when meaning of the word "Pagan" changed.
Ananta65, I see where you are coming from, and yes there are many definitions of Christians, Buddhists etc, and who is to say which is right, perhaps they all are in many ways, but I guess no-one will be proven right or wrong until they die.
Personally I think we may just all be worshipping the same "God", but in different ways according to what we are comfortable with and what we believe, or in many cases what we have been taught. This wouldn't make anyone "wrong", and would mean essentially we are all bickering amongst ourselves over the best recipe to "bake a sponge cake", when actually there are many good recipes out there, and all will result in a cake that is delicious even if the ingredients vary slightly from cake to cake.
There is a problem with what you wrote Misty.
"Many are so different in their words, beliefs, ways to worship, that it cannot be the same god. Some have killed their children claiming God told them to do it. Others will change their god to what they want, instead of allowing God to change them to what he wants."
Still others believe they must fight and war against non believers. Not a spiritual war either but a physical one. Some also rape and murder. They kill, steal, and destroy.
Others speak of Karma. Bad Karma is due to an evil life? I recall a two year old who was raped and abused by his uncle recently. He also died later due to the injuries. What did he do to receive bad karma? He was only 2.
Opinions are as diverse as their are people in the world today. Nothing is consisten at all anymore. excpet God's Word.
Which is why - in my opinion - non of us can claim to know 'The Truth', Mistyhorizon
SirDent: I canot answer this to your satisfaction because whatever I say will come through me.
Para - of course, and you know I was teasing you. But my point (and I think many others too) is that any claim to know God's word is a step too far. Humility in the face of the unknowable would seem a more reasonable position.
There is widespread consensus that rape, murder, theft etc are wrong. Aberrant behaviour is aberrant in all cultures, not just Christian.
SirDent: Yes I could very well be wrong. Man has been wrong about a lot of things.
… we tell them that their way is wrong and God's way is right.
Ananta65:
Basically you acknowledge that you could well be wrong in telling me that my way is wrong then, Sir Dent.
Very good point Sir Dent, and of course Killing, murdering etc in the name of religion is not quite what I had in mind when I posted, and I seriously doubt any God would want that either, it is more often the followers who decide to fight in the name of religion and not the teachings of their own religious "books" or "Gods", so yes, this would not be the kind of worship I meant, and I was in general referring to the more conventional ways different religions worship in similar ways.
I think Karma is a whole topic in itself, so won't get into that issue deeply here as it is a huge subject with many differing viewpoints. What I will say is not all bad Karma means someone has led an evil life, it can simply be down to one action or event from their past, or even from a former life if you want to go down the whole reincarnation route too. Perhaps you may do a separate Hub on Karma at some point in time. There is also the school of thought that "everything happens for a reason" and that "no matter how bad the event, something good will come out of it somehwere because it was meant to be". So for example, if a Mother loses a child from say "Cancer", but then later goes on to use her terrible experience to help and support other Mothers in the same situation, maybe stopping them from taking their own lives due to their grief being unbearable, then something good has come out of the tragedy, and that child did not die in vain.
I brought up the part about Karma because it is a part of the diversity of beliefs. I know this is extreme but I must say it. According to what you said on karma, it is OK to murder children. It is a part of the karmaic belief.
Like I said, it is to the extreme.
I don’t appreciate your interpretations and conclusions, Sir Dent. Nowhere and never have I justified murder or violence. In fact, in my opinion, Karma is quite close to the biblical “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you” (Matthew 7:120).
I find this accusation extremely offensive and object strongly to it. Clearly you have not REALLY read what I have written about Karma.
Ananta is right in saying the idea behind karma is very similar to to the Christian idea of doing on to others as you would have them do onto you. Karma has never advocated killing children. Actually, one thing my mom always used to say to me when I was little and was being severly teased by children at school was "their karma will come back to them." You know I am a Christian and I believe in the concept of Karma, what you do comes back to you. Not to gloat, but some of those bullies apologized to me years later and said they were sorry for their misdeeds.
Ananta, I was addressing something Misty wrote earlier. My mistake for not making it clear. I mentioned something about a two year old boy dying from injuries received as his uncle abused him sexually and raped him.
This is the reason for what I wrote. It is according to her answer to me. I also said it is on the extreme side.
I cannot speak for all Pagans, of course, but this one beleives "Jesus" was a Buddhistwhose beautiful teachings and messages were twisted by greedy, power-hungry religious zealots with even more twisted agendas.
...This, of course, was AFTER they had him brutally tortured to death.
I never said it was "Okay to murder children", you have completely misinterpreted what I said. The point I was making was that it can be believed that everything happens for a reason, and something good will always come out of something bad somewhere along the line.
The Karma will come back on the murderer, and many Spiritual people believe that before we even come into this life we agree to have certain experiences as part of our own, or others Spiritual advancement in the coming life. In other words a spirit may volunteer to go through a traumatic event in order to allow another soul to advance from living through the consequences of their actions.
Many hold the theory that souls are returning again and again to this world to advance on their spiritual path from their experiences and are choosing the form those experiences will take, therefore a child's soul could be a far more advanced soul than that of the one in a person of 80. It is not the physical body we are assessing here, but the soul inside of it.
Thanks for clarifying Misty. I appreciate it.
CW, who was Buddha's god? Just curious.
Religion will always be a controversial matter.
Personally I'm agnostic.
Still, jolly good hub :D
I suppose the Christains didn't try to purify half the world from the Muslim evil during the Crusades?
Jesus was a druid. I like the idea that he faked his death and went to India and started Islam... that really upsets people.
I like how the hub is passionate about information that cannot be proved, hell the Bible was written 70 years after Christ died/faked his death and was re-written 400 years later.
He he controls religion, controls the people.. think some Ceasar said that... he was pagan and converted to Christainity on his deathbed.
Oh man.
What do Pagans really think of Jesus? Did you think of asking any? Most the ones I know would say "Aye, he seemed decent enough, shame about what the Church did with his message..."
Peace and Love on the point of a sword? Burning the flesh into redemption? Acceptance by murdering difference?
Get rid of religion and just look to your God, makes life so much simpler.
Bob, this piece was written from history. Only one Bible verse is quoted in it. As I stated in another comment here, opinions can vary by as many people talk about something, but God is always right.
Paul, I wonder if you even read the hub. If you did you would know that nearly all of it is from a historical viewpoint.
Pagans today hate Christians just as much as they did during the first centruy AD. I read their forums and such. They accept everything except Christians who preach the Word of God.
Those who say I love Jesus but hate his followers, hates Jesus. His followers are His body.
I think people just like to question Christians is the impression I get. If they are so happy with their religion, why do they care. I have seen some gross generalizations made in the comments here, but I was trying not to get involved. One gross generalization was that many Christian in America have a fundamentalist bent and vote for presidents such as Bush. I never voted for Bush and I am not a Christian fundamentalist. I cannot speak for all Christians, but you would be surprised with how many people assume all Christians vote Republican, which is not always the case. Another thing, many people in the US do not vote and if you are worried about voting patterns, I suggest you get out there and inform people about voting. Another person commenting that American Christians do not know about persecutions of others such as witches in Cromwelian England, but guess what, I am a history major and knew all about this. Another thing that I find disconcerting was non-Christians trying to downplay the persecution of Christians through out history, but if someone came to your hub about the persecution of a group and downplayed it it would not be appreciated. Many American Christians come from a diverse group of people who are knowledagle about history and do not appreciate generalizations. Just some things I have gleaned from reading this hub. It seems popular to bash so called "American Christian fundamentalists," but a few here were really incensed when sirdent wrote his hub and Muhammad vs. Christ and pointed out there are fundamentalist Muslims also. The bottom line is I do not think fundamentalist Muslims or fundamentalist Christians are true to their religion if they abuse it to do unrightous things. Way too much labeling and finger pointing going on in the comments section of this hub.
I am very glad you're not real angry, Sweetie. Just kidding. Thanks for the comment and support. :)
Technically I am Arab-American and a Christian. Wow, I wonder if some Europeans and others who have generalized ever knew this was possible :). Not to generalize, but some of those comments people left were not polite. Not all Christians vote for Bush or assume others have not be persecuted. Anyway, this was all I wanted to say. It is really hard to put any one group of people in a box.
Sweetie, are you saying you are the best of three worlds? :P Thanks once again for the support.
No I was just joking, do not think I am better than anyone :). I just think some of the people that like to give you a hard time do so because you write about Christianity. If you were writing about Islam, Buddhism, or any other religion and said that was the best, none of these people would give you a hard time perhaps. Some people are polite on here, but others like to push your buttons I see. Today I saw a newbie was given a hard time on the forum just because he said he was a Christian. Really it is so silly. Dramarama forum time :).
It is statements like this that make all other religions dislike Christians:
"Pagans today seem to say they love Jesus but have problems with His followers. If they truly love Jesus, as they say, they would also love His followers. What I see is that they don't like being told the truth. They would rather live in their idolatry and sins than be saved by the only One who can save them."
Did you live in Jesus time? Did you see any miracles? Did you see the angel come to Mary? Can you prove any of this? NO! But you continue to persecute all pagans and atheists as idol worshipping sinners. I will not be reading any more of your hubs, simply because you are the most bigoted, judgmental, and close minded person I've found here on Hubpages or anywhere else for that matter.
You, as a Christian, should love EVERYONE, and if you know the Bible, you would know that you have NO RIGHT TO JUDGE. God reserves that right for himself.
Christians were persecuted before just as pagans are persecuted now, and YOU are one of the persecutors. How does being a Christian make you any better than those who persecuted Christians?
I'd be willing to bet that you are a recovering addict who has replaced his addiction to a substance with an addiction to Jesus. I've seen this too many times in my life. A weak person who has nothing else to make him important, so he bullies people who don't believe as he does.
Yes, I said BULLIES. You are a far right, Christian BULLY! I have to stop now, because it's not good to be this angry this early in the morning.
Karma will take care of the likes of you.
So, you decided to become a crusador in Hubpages? :) You really don't know much about history and it's a shame that you pretend like you do.
Not all people from other religions dislike Christians. Actually only on the Internet do I ever read people say things like they do in the comments section here. People would not dream of saying some of the things they say here at work or around friends, but when people come online they feel they can say things they would not usually say. However, if some people actually say these kind of things to peoples faces, I am sure people think you are not very nice for it. Yes, being nice still counts for something because people do not want to talk to people who say whatever they think. Gee, even kindergartens know better than to put someone down.
dafla says:10 hours ago
It is statements like this that make all other religions dislike Christians:
"Pagans today seem to say they love Jesus but have problems with His followers. If they truly love Jesus, as they say, they would also love His followers. What I see is that they don't like being told the truth. They would rather live in their idolatry and sins than be saved by the only One who can save them."
Did you live in Jesus time? Did you see any miracles? Did you see the angel come to Mary? Can you prove any of this? NO! But you continue to persecute all pagans and atheists as idol worshipping sinners. I will not be reading any more of your hubs, simply because you are the most bigoted, judgmental, and close minded person I've found here on Hubpages or anywhere else for that matter.
You, as a Christian, should love EVERYONE, and if you know the Bible, you would know that you have NO RIGHT TO JUDGE. God reserves that right for himself.
Christians were persecuted before just as pagans are persecuted now, and YOU are one of the persecutors. How does being a Christian make you any better than those who persecuted Christians?
I'd be willing to bet that you are a recovering addict who has replaced his addiction to a substance with an addiction to Jesus. I've seen this too many times in my life. A weak person who has nothing else to make him important, so he bullies people who don't believe as he does.
Yes, I said BULLIES. You are a far right, Christian BULLY! I have to stop now, because it's not good to be this angry this early in the morning.
Karma will take care of the likes of you.
SirDent: So you're saying telling the truth upsets pagans? Would you rather I lie to you and let you believe the lie?
What does love really do? Does it allow people to be lost and blind? Love tells the truth always.
Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
You call me your enemy, when I simply tell the truth. You call me judgmental, because I tell you the truth. It is your choice to believe or not believe. I have always stated that and will always state it. Never have I denied anyone the freedom to choose.
redpony says:3 hours ago
So, you decided to become a crusador in Hubpages? :) You really don't know much about history and it's a shame that you pretend like you do.
SirDent: Have you checked history records to see if what I wrote is true?
Im another agnostic and i saw a documentary about the pagans just recently and it seems like a very different way of life! Not a life i would be happy being part of although they seem to be very nice, kind and caring people!! that's what i gathered from it but i may have missed the boat some where along the line!
Thanks for the comment Compu-smart. This is written mostly from an historical perspective. Many talk about the crusades and the inquisition, but you hear very little about the persecution of Christians by pagans in the first century AD.
I also wrote about the first Crusade, and just like on this hub I held nothing back. http://hubpages.com/hub/TheCrusades
If you are interested in reading it, you can check it out.
SirDent said "Many talk about the crusades and the inquisition, but you hear very little about the persecution of Christians by pagans in the first century AD."
No, I agree and completely understand your desire to have Christianity included in the great club of the oppressed, but your repeated referring of the subject implies you might be seeing that as justification for 1900 years of various oppressions in the name of the Christian Church. But of course, you are far too intelligent to believe that.
Also you said "Pagans today hate Christians just as much as they did during the first centruy AD. I read their forums and such. They accept everything except Christians who preach the Word of God". I can assure you that this is not the case, at least in my experience. People are people are people, good, bad, indifferent.
As a pagan, I respect each individual on their merits. I don't have some kind of built-in hatred/pity/dislike for those of a different path, nor an overwhelming desire to repeatedly inform those people that their way is wrong and my way is right. I'm not so arrogant as to think I hold all the answers for everybody.
Jesus died for the sins of all mankind, according to scripture. He gave us all a clean slate to work from, and we went and dirtied it all again, the commandments became guidelines, malleable and corrupted. "Love others as you would be loved", Jesus' greatest lesson, became conditional. "Love other Christians as you would be loved - as long as their sins don't offend your aesthetic tastes" could be the Churches lesson today.
But no, I don't hate Christians. I accept them into my life as willingly as I would any person.
The faith isn't important. The deeds make the person.
[perhaps, just a thought - maybe if the title was "what DID pagans think of Jesus?" woulda been less off-tilt
i wanted to throw up after reading this blog. get your facts straight. get your beliefs directed towards a more positive goal. pagans are beautiful. jesus is and all others who sacrifice for you are beautiful. keep your narrow minded misguided information to yourself for the sake of those trying to do what's right without such negative judgement.
ABC, why didn't you give a few facts if you know them of have them?
I have enjoyed reading many of your hubs and comments from you on other hubs. You seem very insiteful and have a lot of biblical and historical knowledge. So please do not take any offence, but I just don't get the purpose of this hub? It seems like your intent is to stir anger and pick a fight. I don't see how this is going to win any soles. Please forgive me if I miss your point. P.S. still a fan.
Jesus_saves_us_, this was written at a time when many were discussing persecutions in forus and other hubs. Nearly all who discussed pointed to the crusades. They forgot abotu what happened 1000 years before the crusades.
This was not wirtten in anger. It was written to show the truth. I also wrote a hub about the crusades before I wrote this one.
One cannot show a light, if they don't know they are in darkness.
I appreciate your comment very much. Thanks for visiting my hub.
SirDent ~ I appreciate your hub very much. Historical facts are shown and unless someone does not believe the historical facts in the Bible, they won't understand. There are many religious wars over doctrines, and it's really something how many don't believe Jesus is our only way to the Father (God) and that Hell really does exist and that God, loving God, will indeed cast them away from Him. I've been having doctrinal theological discussions with these people on not only my hubs, but Hell No's (noticed you're a fan).
Thank you Carrie for the comment. I appreciate it very much. I am a fan of Hell No's not becuae I like what he writes, but just to keep track of what he is doing.
Yes, I know you're not a fan of Hell No (nor am I). That doctrine is straight out of the pit of the father of LIES. To tell people they're not to be saved today, and that sometime after they die they will be put through a spiritual fire and be forced to admit Jesus is Lord then be made immortal to enjoy the inheritance of God is ridiculous. They even believe Satan will be purified and "saved". AMAZING. ALL are saved; there is no Hell; there is no accountability and absolutely nothing to worry about. Staight out of the mouth of Satan. Incredible.
If you care to waste your time reading my comments on Hell No's hubs, I could sure use some backup. Support is like FRESH WATER washing over our wounds! Warfare is not fun, but is necessary because we LOVE.
You aren't wrong about Roman execution of Christians, but you are vastly over simplifying. People seem to think that these executions stemmed from some horrifying "pagan" hatred.
That simply untrue. Rome was an empire and an occupying one at that. Many Romans at this time weren't even very religious. Rome occupied Israel. All other occupied peoples were required to sacrifice once a year to Nike, the goddess of victory on behalf of the Roman Empire. Jews were given a religious exemption from this law.
When Christians asserted that they were not Jewish, but would not sacrifice to Nike either, they were in violation of the law. Imprisonments and executions were political, designed to repress a growing pseudo-Judeo resistance movement (from a Roman perspective)
Admittedly, Romans didn't understand Christians very well. The "eat my body, drink my blood" think had many Romans thinking that Christians were vampires and cannibals. You have to admit the language is strange.
I'm not defending the horrible things that Roman empire did to Christians, Jews, Egyptians, and other occupied peoples.
I am asking you to stop acting as if modern Pagans somehow bear the guilt for a 2000 year old injustice. We admit that it happened. it was terrible and Pagans today do not hate Christians (on the whole, people are people of course).
Besides, I believe there is a line in the Bible about removing the timber from your own eye before pointing out the mote in your own. Christianity has been responsible accused Jews of bringing the black plague, poisoning wells, and eating children. More recently, Purtianism was responsible for deaths of many women accused of witchcraft, who could only prove their "innocence" through martyrdom.
A few years ago a young man by the name of Matthew Shepard was dragged behind a car to his death in the name of Christianity.
Honestly, though I could give examples of violence in Hinduism (the cast system), Buddhism (believe it or not Samuri and ritual suicide are very much associated with some forms of Buddhism), and Islam.
Terrible things are often done in the name of religion. The best thing we, as believers can do is to apologize, reform, and remember the past respectfully. Reciting 2000 yr old wounds helps no one. Please stop blaming us. Every religion with a past has some bloodshed in it. Why can't you just live and let live? We mean you no harm.
I am a British somali and a muslim, would you mind explaining to me why pagans and the christian church hate jews.
What is truth? If truth is something you mean than I could say that magic exist and it would be the truth because I mean it. You could say that magic does not exist and it would be the truth because you mean it. If is truth something that can be or is proven than every religion is lying including yours and mine because they can not be proved.
What is truth? If you can not answer the question than how do you know what you are saying is the truth?
What is truth? What makes what you say the truth and not what I say? What is the truth? I wait for your answer.
Lunus Lupus, do you really want to know the truth?
Yes I would like to know what the truth is and what makes it the truth.
Lunus Lupus, seek after Jesus and He will show you the truth. He is the only one who knows the real truth.
How do you know? Have you spoken to him personally? What makes him the only one to know the truth? If he is the only one who knows the truth then how can you be telling us the truth? How is anything anyone is saying is the truth if they do not actually know the truth? I am not asking you these things to question your religion or what you believe I am just trying to see what promoted you to write this article and to use the words you did.
Jesu sis the only truth there. Yes I have spoken to Him, many times in fact. I don't claim to know the truth, but He does. In fact, he says He is the truth.
I can't make you see anything that I write as being good, true or bad. But I can show you where you can find out the truth.
I try not to post comments on discussions like this, there is no real point, it's like throwing your pearls to pigs if you pardon the expression.
I did my research into Wicca and really believe that nature is wonderful and should be admired. Modern day pagans see the spirituality of nature and feel at one with their surroundings. And yes, most are nice people who don't want to harm anyone.
But when SirDent talks about pagans in this hub, you've got to understand that ancient pagans of that time were not just nature lovers.
Some of their rituals included sexual orgies, indecency, and the babies from these rituals were sometimes burnt on the alter as a sacrifice to their gods.
As for the truth, I'm sorry but Truth is NOT relative. To say it doesn't matter what you believe so long as it is true to you, well you're basically doing the very thing that you're telling Christians not to do. It is a believe of Truth that you're imposing on others, a Truth statement that actually doesn't make sense.
All humans die, only 1 thing happens to ALL humans when we die. Not that some go to Allah, others to the dust.
There is only one thing that is True.
So why do we know Jesus is that truth?
I wish I could explain that to you all. I lived my life as an agnostic, nearly becoming an atheist before getting involved in spiritualism.
Then one day, I just said God, if you're real, if you're really there, then I want to believe!
It says in the bible, knock and the door shall be opened.
That wonderful day that God revealed himself to me, revealed who Jesus was and that he had died for me, it was the most amazing, life transforming experience. The day that you are given that revelation, the day you find out that the story of Jesus is real, it is life changing.
It is as though your eyes have been opened for the first time, you see the world through Jesus eyes and feel not only His love for it, but the pain of rejection.
I know, all the images of Jesus, the crusades, the hypocrisy of the church, priests abusing small boys, I know it makes Christianity look bad, but that's man not God.
It just goes to show that we are all sinners, we all have the capacity to do what is right but don't always do it. But Jesus see's the depths of our hearts and loves us all the same. His grace and love for us means that we don't have to try to be good on our own strength. That all we have to do is believe that he died for us and we can spend eternity with him.
To me now, Life without God would be hell, so Death without Him would be unthinkably worse!
I know a few have already touched on it but I have to say this, Though many things had happened in the past(that cannot be denied) when it came to early Christians but let us not forget the greater sins of Christians of the past, How many pagans and Wicca believer had been murdered in the past because they refused to go over to "Christ" and the religion that was founded around the man?
How many children was slaughtered because their families refused to be come part of christian church?
you have no right to spew things like how pagans today hate Christians because that just isn't true. I am a Pagan through and Through.
now with that I say goodnight/day and may the Goddess watch over you.
Christians are such hypocrites these days.
the following information comes from "War Against the Pagans," in Secret History of the Witches © 2000 Max Dashu
"... The Roman state gave free rein to Christian extremists who destroyed pagan shrines and images, or who committed violence against pagan leaders. They attacked people at pagan services and destroyed their temples. Arson was a favorite tactic. From the late 300s on, monks stand out as the primary aggressors in the battle to suppress pagans in the east. Even Christian documents describe them as violent and crime-prone, beating people they considered sinful, stirring up sectarian strife. [MacMullen, 171-2] The pagan Eunapius remarked that these monks looked like men but lived like pigs, "and openly did and allowed countless unspeakable crimes." [Eunapius, 423] He added bitterly, “For among them, every man is given the power of a tyrant who has a black robe and is prepared to behave badly in public.” [Hollland-Smith, 170] Some were not above murder."
One target of the fanatical monk was Hypatia, an astronomer, mathematician and philosopher of international reputation. Socrates Scholasticus wrote that "she far surpassed all the philosophers of her time,” and was greatly respected for her “extraordinary dignity and virtue.” [Ecclesiastical History] Hypatia's house was an important intellectual center in a city distinguished for its learning. Damasius described how she "used to put on her philosopher's cloak and walk through the middle of town" to give public lectures on philosophy. [Life of Isidore, in the Suda]
When Cyril became bishop in 412, he began pushing to extend his power into the civic sphere. His enforcers were the parabalanoi, strongmen who had been the shock troops of bishop Theophilus' war on pagans and Jews. Bishop Cyril persecuted heterodox Christian groups, closing their churches and expelling them from the city. He spread rumors of a Jewish conspiracy to murder Christians and instigated a brawl between Jews and Christians at a theater. The Jews protested that the bishop's agents had provoked the fight. The prefect Orestes (himself a Christian) heard out their grievances and arrested one of the bishop's allies. In 414, armed conflict broke out between Cyril's supporters and the embattled Jews. It ended with the looting and seizure of synagogues, and the bishop expelling the ancient Jewish community from Alexandria.
So all in all Christians whine and cry about how they was treated but yet they seem to forget that they did 1,000 times worse to Pagans.
also need I remind you Dent that there are MANY kinds of pagans and just because Rome pagans did those things does not mean every pagan did so for you to paint us with a single broad stroke was wrong and foolish. do more research next time and make sure you include the horrors of christens instead of a one sided almost lying out their back side just so they can get pity and a 'reason' to murder pagans.
but then you are most likely one of those people who are blinded and cannot see or do not want to see the truth.
I won't say what is or isn't the truth here, Because frankly, how does anyone know what the exact truth is? But it is clear to me that, generalising here, the Christians believe that the pagans are the ones at fault and the pagans feel that the Christians are at fault. Myself, being interested in the pagan beliefs and what not believe that neither are at fault but before anyone says such strong things out on the web, they shoould first do their research. Yes, I'm sure pagans did do some of those things and yes, they weren't always focused on nature and sacrificed Babies to their gods. But Christians slaughtered many Pagans and Wiccans due to their beliefs and lack of interest in the Christians beliefs. That is hardly aa reason to slaughter people. Everyone has a right to do what they want, within reason I suppose, and have what ever beliefs they choose. So I think people should stop shoving their religions down other peoples throats and just accept that everyone can have their own beliefs,
Personally, I think its wrong to accuse pagans of such crimes. That all happened in the past and we need to focus on the present. Many pagans accept all religions just like many christans do. Its not fair to hate us. Jesus, who I think was a great man, said that hateing is wrong.
I... Beg your pardon?
I acknowledge that Christians have been vilified, bad-mouthed, and persecuted for their faiths -- but I would like to try and balance the scales a little because this discussion is making me very uncomfortable, as I'm sure it is making many others.
Yes, contemporary pagans do insult Abrahamic faiths and their adherents, but the reverse is also true. I have seen countless pagans contradicting their own dogma and giving other pagans a bad name in the process.
I have also seen the same in the adherents of the Abrahamic faiths.
I respect every word you say about Jesus Christ having died for our sins, and I weep at the thought -- but is it possible for some faiths which differ at first glance to simply be different languages all speaking for the same subject? The Chinese and Russian words for "potato" may sound radically different, but they're still saying "potato" (not that Jesus is a potato, hee hee).
I know I can't hope to change opinions with such simple words and in such a small voice. I don't quote written sources because in my own personal dogma the only thing truly known is a thing known by the heart. I don't even hope for a response.
I just wish for the voice of the small and meek to be heard.
(Note: I don't think my personal faith really matters in a scheme as big as this, but it appears to matter here. I am not a Christian nor a "pagan" as it has been labelled numerous times, but my own faith is stronger than I am.)
PS: Dear Patty, I hear your closing remark on Jesus Christ clear as a silver bell. Thank you for bringing this to the table.
I apologize for the double-post: I just realized that my PS may have come off as rather flippant. I was not meaning to say that the good Christians here are being at all hypocritical by being hateful. They are being very civil and calm -- I was simply speaking in generalities. I think that in some cases, not necessarily within this discussion, both pagans and Christians can benefit from such a teaching.
Hi Sallie. You wrote a well thought out comment and I commend you for that. I also agree with some of what you wrote and disagree with the rest.
You said, (but is it possible for some faiths which differ at first glance to simply be different languages all speaking for the same subject?)
I say, No. Though I understand what you mean, look at the character of the God that each say they follow after. For instance, in the Muslim belief, the word Allah is said to mean God and is said to be the same God of Christians. Now, Muslims will not admit it openly that they are ordered to kill non believers wherever they see them, that is unless they pay the Jizya or protection tax. No where in the Bible is this even mentioned. It also reminds me of a mafia mentality.
You spoke about Abrahamic religions, but Christianity is not of Abraham. Christianity stems from Jesus Christ and is based upon His teachings along with His death, burial and resurrection.
You said you didn't expect a response and I believe that is because Patty did not receive one. What Patty wrote above did not deserve a response. She was simply ranting and trying to make me look like I hated pagans. I assure you this and her also if she comes back to read this. If I actually hated you or anyone else, I would not even bother with you.
Oh, I'm sorry -- I didn't realize Christianity wasn't Abrahamic. It just goes to show that I have a great deal to learn about these things.
I still hold a rather universal view on the goodness of [some] faiths, but I wouldn't dare try to change someone else's feelings -- it isn't my right, and it isn't my place, and I think that any faith which is well placed is the best there is.
Thank you very much for considering my comment and for your answer. Your solid faith in the Christ is commendable: you are a great credit to God, SirDent.
Blessings to all,
--Saille
Saille, many believe Christianity to be an off shoot of Judaism, but it is not. Jesus did not preach Judaism. he preached the gospel of the Kingdom of God. He brought grace to the forefront which was actually in the beginning. *Noah found grace in the eyes of God. Genesis 6:8*
Many say they love Jesus and heed His word but they do not. They heed small parts of what He said but that is all.
I see -- I'm finding this all rather interesting. Perhaps I should look into it more. Do you recommend any sources for the teachings of Jesus? (I'm afraid I'm not well-informed about which Bible is which!)
Saille, start with this hub if you really want to know.
Thank you very much, SirDent. I have read the hub and while the imagery presented within is very shocking and garish (though as such it presents a powerful and effective message), I enjoyed it. It does run very parallel to the words of my own faith -- merely the names differ -- but I am always happy to further my spiritual education.
I'm sorry I didn't actually contribute much to the conversation at hand! I will say, however, that those who claim that 2000 years is a long time to hold a grudge may bear in mind that the mistakes of the past should always be remembered, if only to prevent their repetition.
In closing, an old phrase for both sides of this debate:
"You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view."
CJStone Level 5 Commenter 3 years ago
"Pagan" doesn't mean many gods. That's polytheistic. The pagus was the village. so the word "pagan" refers to the beliefs and practices of country folk as opposed to city people. The Roman worshippers of the official pantheon of gods looked down on the country folk with their archaic customs and called them pagan. The English equivalent is Heathen, which means "people of the heaths": again, country folk. So pagan refers to a set of beliefs to do with the cycles of nature and with natural phenomenon and actually it doesn't have an opinion about Jesus. Early Christianity was the religion of the slaves so of course was a threat to orthodox Roman - not pagan - opinion, hence the samples you give above. Until it was adopted by the Roman state, that is, and it's radical message distorted, a process that continues to this day.